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Thread: I Would Love to Open Carry, But...

  1. #1
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    Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

    His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

    However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

    Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

    Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

    How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

    Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

    I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

    But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

    To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

    Am I alone?

  2. #2
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    RubberArm wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

    His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

    However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

    Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

    Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

    How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

    Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

    I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

    But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

    To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

    Am I alone?
    You are not alone. There are some 22 states where you don't have to register or get permission to own a gun. Unfortunately Michigan is not one of them. This state is one that is very restrictive in regards to handgun ownership.

    It's something that needs to change, so write your reps and keep writing them. If you are still not happy, there are other states where your freedom is recognized. That's what's great about the United States of Anerica, each one is sovereign at least for now. Don't like one state we are free to move to another.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    NO, you are not alone.

    We must work to rectify the current unconstitutional requirement of obtaining a purchase permit and also the registration of our firearms within our great state of Michigan.

    Until that time comes we must abide by the law.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    You could just OC a long gun :P

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  5. #5
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    One thing to remember is baby steps. I hate them, HATE them! But you've got to remember that we didn't get where we are today over night. Little by little our rights, not just 2A have been infringed upon, seriously hindered or out and out taken away.

    Likewise, this trend will not be reversed overnight. I wish it were that easy, but it take a lot of hard work and time to get these things done. In the mean time, registering to purchase a handgun is a small price to pay in order to be able to protect yourself and your family.

    As a law abiding citizen, you don't have another option

  6. #6
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    As a law abiding citizen, you don't have another option
    Of course you do! Long Guns!

    OC your AR-15 on your back. :-D

  7. #7
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Lawl, woodward clean up in Det. w/long guns! Who wants to loan me their AR....

    <.<

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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Lawl, woodward clean up in Det. w/long guns! Who wants to loan me their AR....

    <.<
    LOL I think I would put that event on hold for a day or two.

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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Lawl, woodward clean up in Det. w/long guns!* Who wants to loan me their AR....

    <.<
    I'll go. I'm serious.

  10. #10
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Gotta talk my wife into an AR first

  11. #11
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Gotta talk my wife into an AR first
    Bring the Rem 870/Mossy 500! (every gun owner has one of those, right?)

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    RubberArm wrote:

    Am I alone?
    Nope.

  13. #13
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    Welcome to OCDO RubberArm.

    About all I can add to this discussion is that the Michigan members have come a long way in terms of lawful OC, educating LE, the general public, etc, in the last 14 or so months. If you review the Michigan Events Schedule Thread for Previous MOC Events, I believe, it alone, speaks volumes. Personally, I believe Michigan has some of the mostlax laws pertaining to gun ownership and carrying, whether OC or CC, compared to other state's prohibited areas/places. And yes, I do believe there should be no prohibited areas/places for law abiding individuals to carry.

    For now, about all we can do is kiss a little azz, by way of obtaining CPL's, for example,to help make our goals a bit easier to reach. In reality, I don't think infringements we have seen in the past and alsotoday will ever go away.I do foresee the possibility of removing some of the prohibited places but not all of them. There's simply too many sheeple in this state to even consider such a thing.

  14. #14
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Gotta talk my wife into an AR first
    Bring the Rem 870/Mossy 500! (every gun owner has one of those, right?)








    Wifey says July and I can get one :P

  15. #15
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Lawl, woodward clean up in Det. w/long guns! Who wants to loan me their AR....

    <.<
    I'll go. I'm serious.
    I'm willing and in fact eager to do some long gun OCing as well, but I'm not too eager to do it in the D. I'd be much more willing to do the first long gun OCing in a smaller, more friendly city or town, with a police chief who first acknowledges that we're acting lawfully.

    Remember, brandishing is not well defined, but we do have an AG opinion to protect holstered pistols, as well as hunting/official use with everything else. That doesn't make it any less legal, but it does make long gun OC into walking on thinner ice than pistol OC. At a minimum, slings or scabbards would be a must, because they are essentially proof of mere carrying.

    Anyway, they did it in Ohio recently, and I think we can do it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfcxa...eature=related

    Or, here is a way to split the difference.

    http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...cdinner037.jpg


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  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    RubberArm wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

    His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

    However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

    Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

    Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

    How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

    Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

    I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

    But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

    To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

    Am I alone?
    It's been a while, but I don't think they fingerprint (I could be wrong, though). A background check is done when a buyer purchases at a licensed dealer too, so although I think the law is the biggest waste of time and resources and should be stricken from the books, I think it is only slightly worse than what the feds require. Yes, it affects private purchases of handguns (Feds don't) and Michigan keeps the records w/ serial numbers (major issue here).
    I realize that as lame as my local PD is about doing anything correctly, I can only hope that the records they sent the MSP are representative of this general incompetence.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
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    DrTodd wrote:
    RubberArm wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

    His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

    However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

    Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

    Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

    How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

    Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

    I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

    But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

    To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

    Am I alone?
    It's been a while, but I don't think they fingerprint (I could be wrong, though).* A background check is done when a buyer purchases at a licensed dealer too, so although I think the law is the biggest waste of time and resources and should be stricken from the books, I think it is only slightly worse than what the feds require.* Yes, it affects private purchases of handguns (Feds don't) and Michigan keeps the records w/ serial numbers (major issue here).*
    I realize that as lame as my local PD is about doing anything correctly, I can only hope that the records they sent the MSP are representative of this general incompetence.
    Correct, No fingerprints, just the background check. The fingerprinting happens when you apply for your CPL.

  18. #18
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Hmm, got my gun and license before CPL and they still took a thumbprint.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I recall hearing that some local PD's had their own requirements at one time... also recall that the AG said that they could not do this at some point in the past. Don't really have it handy but I don't think any local PD's do this anymore. If it is an issue that someone here has dealt with recently, I would be willing to do some research so that the local PD could be informed that it is illegal (if it is).
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
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    I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

    Now I've got a CPL.

    Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.

  21. #21
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Veritas wrote:
    I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

    Now I've got a CPL.

    Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
    I completely agree. In Warren, it took me about 30-45 mins from start to finish. A friend of mine in Shelby Twp. took about a week, just to get a license! Ridiculous.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Veritas wrote:
    I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

    Now I've got a CPL.

    Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
    Wow, I didn't even know that there COULD be a turn-around time. At my local PD, it only took a few minutes. The clerk went in back, ran the check, and came back out w/ the purchase permit. Just one more argument that the system should be done away with; unequal application of the law!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
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    Veritas wrote:
    I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

    Now I've got a CPL.

    Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
    It is against the law to make anyone wait a week. The statute clearly states they have to issue the permit with due speed and diligence.

    They tried to do that to me at Grand Travese County Sheriff;s office,I pointed out the statute language and I said I will be back in an hour have it ready by then. They did.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
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    Venator wrote:
    It is against the law to make anyone wait a week. The statute clearly states they have to issue the permit with due speed and diligence.

    They tried to do that to me at Grand Travese County Sheriff;s office,I pointed out the statute language and I said I will be back in an hour have it ready by then. They did.
    In my opinion, what the last city I lived in did to me was against the law too. Yes, I know that a deputized clerk, even though she may not have a degree in psychology and has never spent a single day in the field interacting with people, is allowed under the law to say she FEELS I MIGHT be a danger to myself and to others... this is the "catch all" in the law that allows police stations to "lawfully" deny someone the right to purchase a pistol. But while they can freely deny, they must be able to articulate WHY the felt that way if you were to sue in court. More on this subject below.

    Believe me, I argued with the LT, and then CPT, until I was blue in the face. I waited weeks for them to deliberate my case, only to have them never get back with me and then refuse to accept my phone calls. When I finally made a personally visit to the station, I was told (paraphrasing), "You'd have a much easier time if you went to another city... not every city is as thorough as we are." When I explained that I wasn't recieving fair and equal treatment under the law, and that it was absurd to suggest that I actually MOVE to another city just to get a purchase permit, he said, "Sue me."

    I contacted an attorney who told me that, for $3,500, he would take my case. He told me that I could win it, but that there was no way I could recover his costs as damages in court. So I told him to take a hike and took care of it myself.

    Again, I'll make no bones about my impression that the police in that city simply do NOT want citizens armed and they go through lengths to ensure that it becomes difficult, if not downright expensive, to get a purchase permit. To this day, my blood boils every time I drive by the station... just thinking about the smug SOB's sitting behind their desks thinking they have the power to decide who can buy a pistol in their city and who can't. The three individuals I delt with during this ordeal were, in my opinion, not what I would consider good officers of the law. They were reminiscent of the small town sheriffs you'd expect to see in an old spaghetti western. "Ya'll can't come in MY town wif guns... no sirree"

  25. #25
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago.* They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further.* Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports.* It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit.* I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain.* No better results.* So I went around them.

    Now I've got a CPL.

    Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol.* They said it takes a week.* What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more.* The whole thing stinks, if you ask me.* I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun."* A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it.* If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
    I completely agree.* In Warren, it took me about 30-45 mins from start to finish.* A friend of mine in Shelby Twp. took about a week, just to get a license!* Ridiculous.
    Took about 8 minutes at the Ann Arbor police station. The guy's nice, and an Apple Geek! :-P

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