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I Would Love to Open Carry, But...

R

RubberArm

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
51
Location
Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
imported post

Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

Am I alone?
 
Venator

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
imported post

RubberArm wrote:
Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

Am I alone?
Click to expand...

You are not alone. There are some 22 states where you don't have to register or get permission to own a gun. Unfortunately Michigan is not one of them. This state is one that is very restrictive in regards to handgun ownership.

It's something that needs to change, so write your reps and keep writing them. If you are still not happy, there are other states where your freedom is recognized. That's what's great about the United States of Anerica, each one is sovereign at least for now. Don't like one state we are free to move to another.
 
dougwg

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
imported post

NO, you are not alone.

We must work to rectify the current unconstitutional requirement of obtaining a purchase permit and also the registration of our firearms within our great state of Michigan.

Until that time comes we must abide by the law.
 
FatboyCykes

FatboyCykes

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
942
Location
Warren, Michigan, USA
imported post

Welcome to OCDO!

One thing to remember is baby steps. I hate them, HATE them! But you've got to remember that we didn't get where we are today over night. Little by little our rights, not just 2A have been infringed upon, seriously hindered or out and out taken away.

Likewise, this trend will not be reversed overnight. I wish it were that easy, but it take a lot of hard work and time to get these things done. In the mean time, registering to purchase a handgun is a small price to pay in order to be able to protect yourself and your family.

As a law abiding citizen, you don't have another option :(
 
SpringerXDacp

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
imported post

Welcome to OCDO RubberArm.

About all I can add to this discussion is that the Michigan members have come a long way in terms of lawful OC, educating LE, the general public, etc, in the last 14 or so months. If you review the Michigan Events Schedule Thread for Previous MOC Events, I believe, it alone, speaks volumes. Personally, I believe Michigan has some of the mostlax laws pertaining to gun ownership and carrying, whether OC or CC, compared to other state's prohibited areas/places. And yes, I do believe there should be no prohibited areas/places for law abiding individuals to carry.

For now, about all we can do is kiss a little azz, by way of obtaining CPL's, for example,to help make our goals a bit easier to reach. In reality, I don't think infringements we have seen in the past and alsotoday will ever go away.I do foresee the possibility of removing some of the prohibited places but not all of them. There's simply too many sheeple in this state to even consider such a thing.
 
Michigander

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
imported post

zigziggityzoo wrote:
FatboyCykes wrote:
Lawl, woodward clean up in Det. w/long guns! Who wants to loan me their AR....

<.<
Click to expand...

I'll go. I'm serious.
Click to expand...
I'm willing and in fact eager to do some long gun OCing as well, but I'm not too eager to do it in the D. I'd be much more willing to do the first long gun OCing in a smaller, more friendly city or town, with a police chief who first acknowledges that we're acting lawfully.

Remember, brandishing is not well defined, but we do have an AG opinion to protect holstered pistols, as well as hunting/official use with everything else. That doesn't make it any less legal, but it does make long gun OC into walking on thinner ice than pistol OC. At a minimum, slings or scabbards would be a must, because they are essentially proof of mere carrying.

Anyway, they did it in Ohio recently, and I think we can do it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfcxaZgvW-Y&feature=related

Or, here is a way to split the difference. :D

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd284/hddaddy69/Vegasandocdinner037.jpg
 
DrTodd

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
imported post

RubberArm wrote:
Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

Am I alone?
Click to expand...
It's been a while, but I don't think they fingerprint (I could be wrong, though). A background check is done when a buyer purchases at a licensed dealer too, so although I think the law is the biggest waste of time and resources and should be stricken from the books, I think it is only slightly worse than what the feds require. Yes, it affects private purchases of handguns (Feds don't) and Michigan keeps the records w/ serial numbers (major issue here).
I realize that as lame as my local PD is about doing anything correctly, I can only hope that the records they sent the MSP are representative of this general incompetence.
 
Z

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
imported post

DrTodd wrote:
RubberArm wrote:
Hello everyone. I've only been lurking for a short time, primarily following Verita's story about being detained in Detroit for OC.

His story, and a number of others here, has gotten me to seriously consider OC'ing myself.

However, I have a major problem: I believe that if I have to ask permission to do something, then whatever act I am asking permission to do is not a right but a privilege.

Forgive me if this subject has been covered; I searched, but I did not find it specifically addressed.

Here in Michigan, as you all know, in order for me to lawfully purchase a handgun I must first receive permission from my local city police or county sheriff. I must submit to being treated as a criminal in-so-much as I have to be finger-printed and a background check must be performed. I am presumed guilty first.

How can I consider myself a free man under these terms? How can I view carrying a handgun as a "right" when I know that merely owning the handgun is a privilege?

Is it just me, or does anyone else have this hang-up?

I've discussed this elsewhere and I always receive the line about how it is a small price to pay in order to be able to efficiently defend one's self and his/her family, etc.

But is submitting and admitting that one must ask the state for permission to merely own a handgun a "small price" to pay? To me, it is a huge price!

To me, it is an infringement upon my inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

Am I alone?
Click to expand...
It's been a while, but I don't think they fingerprint (I could be wrong, though).  A background check is done when a buyer purchases at a licensed dealer too, so although I think the law is the biggest waste of time and resources and should be stricken from the books, I think it is only slightly worse than what the feds require.  Yes, it affects private purchases of handguns (Feds don't) and Michigan keeps the records w/ serial numbers (major issue here). 
I realize that as lame as my local PD is about doing anything correctly, I can only hope that the records they sent the MSP are representative of this general incompetence.
Click to expand...

Correct, No fingerprints, just the background check. The fingerprinting happens when you apply for your CPL.
 
DrTodd

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
imported post

I recall hearing that some local PD's had their own requirements at one time... also recall that the AG said that they could not do this at some point in the past. Don't really have it handy but I don't think any local PD's do this anymore. If it is an issue that someone here has dealt with recently, I would be willing to do some research so that the local PD could be informed that it is illegal (if it is).
 
V

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
imported post

I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

Now I've got a CPL.

Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
 
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