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I Would Love to Open Carry, But...

FatboyCykes

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942
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Warren, Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

Now I've got a CPL.

Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.

I completely agree. In Warren, it took me about 30-45 mins from start to finish. A friend of mine in Shelby Twp. took about a week, just to get a license! Ridiculous.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

Now I've got a CPL.

Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.
Wow, I didn't even know that there COULD be a turn-around time. At my local PD, it only took a few minutes. The clerk went in back, ran the check, and came back out w/ the purchase permit. Just one more argument that the system should be done away with; unequal application of the law!
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago. They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further. Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports. It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit. I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain. No better results. So I went around them.

Now I've got a CPL.

Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol. They said it takes a week. What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more. The whole thing stinks, if you ask me. I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun." A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it. If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.

It is against the law to make anyone wait a week. The statute clearly states they have to issue the permit with due speed and diligence.

They tried to do that to me at Grand Travese County Sheriff;s office,I pointed out the statute language and I said I will be back in an hour have it ready by then. They did.
 

Veritas

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662
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Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:

It is against the law to make anyone wait a week. The statute clearly states they have to issue the permit with due speed and diligence.

They tried to do that to me at Grand Travese County Sheriff;s office,I pointed out the statute language and I said I will be back in an hour have it ready by then. They did.
In my opinion, what the last city I lived in did to me was against the law too. Yes, I know that a deputized clerk, even though she may not have a degree in psychology and has never spent a single day in the field interacting with people, is allowed under the law to say she FEELS I MIGHT be a danger to myself and to others... this is the "catch all" in the law that allows police stations to "lawfully" deny someone the right to purchase a pistol. But while they can freely deny, they must be able to articulate WHY the felt that way if you were to sue in court. More on this subject below.

Believe me, I argued with the LT, and then CPT, until I was blue in the face. I waited weeks for them to deliberate my case, only to have them never get back with me and then refuse to accept my phone calls. When I finally made a personally visit to the station, I was told (paraphrasing), "You'd have a much easier time if you went to another city... not every city is as thorough as we are." When I explained that I wasn't recieving fair and equal treatment under the law, and that it was absurd to suggest that I actually MOVE to another city just to get a purchase permit, he said, "Sue me."

I contacted an attorney who told me that, for $3,500, he would take my case. He told me that I could win it, but that there was no way I could recover his costs as damages in court. So I told him to take a hike and took care of it myself.

Again, I'll make no bones about my impression that the police in that city simply do NOT want citizens armed and they go through lengths to ensure that it becomes difficult, if not downright expensive, to get a purchase permit. To this day, my blood boils every time I drive by the station... just thinking about the smug SOB's sitting behind their desks thinking they have the power to decide who can buy a pistol in their city and who can't. The three individuals I delt with during this ordeal were, in my opinion, not what I would consider good officers of the law. They were reminiscent of the small town sheriffs you'd expect to see in an old spaghetti western. "Ya'll can't come in MY town wif guns... no sirree"
 

zigziggityzoo

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Nov 28, 2008
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Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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FatboyCykes wrote:
Veritas wrote:
I was fingerprinted for a permission slip a couple years ago.  They also went through the LEIN system and ordered copies of police reports for everything they wanted to investigate further.  Initially, I was denied permission (by the city I lived in at the time) to buy a pistol because of the remarks an officer had written about me in one of the police reports.  It didnt matter that I had gone to court over the incident and that the charges were dropped... the city clerk said she was authorized to deem me "a danger to (myself) and others" and that she could legally deny the permit.  I fought it up to the Lt, and then up to the Captain.  No better results.  So I went around them.

Now I've got a CPL.

Out of curosity, one day I was at the Troy PD on unrelated business and asked them what the turnaround time was on a purchase permit for a pistol.  They said it takes a week.  What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more.  The whole thing stinks, if you ask me.  I understand the point is to keep pistols out of the wrong hands and blah blah blah... but I would think it should be as simple as pulling your record, checking to be sure you don't have felonies, and saying "Congratulations... go get your gun."  A typical officer who pulls you over can do this in a matter of moments... I don't see what the hangup is with a clerk at the station doing it.  If you ask me, I think it's a way to discourage applicants.

I completely agree.  In Warren, it took me about 30-45 mins from start to finish.  A friend of mine in Shelby Twp. took about a week, just to get a license!  Ridiculous.

Took about 8 minutes at the Ann Arbor police station. The guy's nice, and an Apple Geek! :p
 

T Vance

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Mar 22, 2009
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Not on this website, USA
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In Jackson it took me about5-10 minutes. While the lady looked up my background I took at little 10-15 question test. Once I was done she said "everything LOOKED correct" then gave me the purchase permit. It took me longer at Shupbach's actually filling out forms there where I bought the gun than to get the permit.
 

Veritas

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Apr 23, 2009
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Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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So it's pretty clear to me that preemption of State law does exist by city then. It seems that some cities do things differently, in different amounts of time, and with different criteria used to determine issuance.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
So it's pretty clear to me that preemption of State law does exist by city then. It seems that some cities do things differently, in different amounts of time, and with different criteria used to determine issuance.
Preemption is not the issue, it really is a matter of interpretation of state law. What is meant by "due speed and diligence"? One minute, one hour, one day, one week, one month? What is due diligence? A quick LEIN check? A letter from 6 friends and/or your family? Definitions are the issue in the application of most laws and it appears the issuance of Pistol Permits is no exception.

Until such time as there is a definite time period, I'm afraid that the authoritative interpretation is left up to the respective PD's. The longer time periods, though, are more likely to force the issue to be defined by the courts, AG, or legislature.
 

Ruckus

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Aug 30, 2008
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208
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Chesterfield, Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
What's odd is that some cities do it in a matter of moments, and some take a week or more.
Hmmm...I once wondered about that myself. When I first got my purchasing permit I thought there was a waiting period and I then I applied for the permit, received the permit in minutes, purchased my pistol, and took it back for inspection all in a couple hours.
 

Veritas

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662
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Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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DrTodd wrote:
Preemption is not the issue, it really is a matter of interpretation of state law. What is meant by "due speed and diligence"? One minute, one hour, one day, one week, one month? What is due diligence? A quick LEIN check? A letter from 6 friends and/or your family? Definitions are the issue in the application of most laws and it appears the issuance of Pistol Permits is no exception.

Until such time as there is a definite time period, I'm afraid that the authoritative interpretation is left up to the respective PD's. The longer time periods, though, are more likely to force the issue to be defined by the courts, AG, or legislature.
Point taken.
 

Michigander

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I can take an engine out of a car, rebuild it, and put it back in within a week. I don't think that taking a week to file a minuscule amount of paper work could even slightly qualify as being with due speed and diligence.
 

zigziggityzoo

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Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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DrTodd wrote:
Veritas wrote:
So it's pretty clear to me that preemption of State law does exist by city then.  It seems that some cities do things differently, in different amounts of time, and with different criteria used to determine issuance.
Preemption is not the issue, it really is a matter of interpretation of state law.  What is meant by "due speed and diligence"?  One minute, one hour, one day, one week, one month?  What is due diligence?  A quick LEIN check?  A letter from 6 friends and/or your family?  Definitions are the issue in the application of most laws and it appears the issuance of Pistol Permits is no exception.

Until such time as there is a definite time period, I'm afraid that the authoritative interpretation is left up to the respective PD's.  The longer time periods, though, are more likely to force the issue to be defined by the courts, AG, or legislature.

Well, the LEIN check takes less than a minute. So that, plus the 15 question T/F test, and a form to fill out is about 5 minutes for due speed and diligence. If there's a line, fine, 5 minutes x however many people there are in front of you, add in 10 minutes for random breaks and laziness, and we're at minimum as fast as the Sec. of State's office.

No line? no wait. same trip = due diligence.
 

Veritas

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I think the issue between "moments" and "days" is whether or not they pull police reports for things in your LEIN record that are "of interest". I know when I went before the last city I lived in, I waited for 45 minutes in the lobby while the clerk did her due diligence. She told me that she was just waiting on some information from (City Name) to come back. Another 45 minutes later (an hour and a half now), she calls me up to the counter and says, "Yeah... I'm denying you." I asked if it had anything to do with the (City Name) report she was waiting for, and she initially declined to tell me. But after a little pushing, she admitted that it was and said that she felt I was a danger to myself and to others.

For those who are curious: I was arrested and charged with Interfering with Police some years ago. The incident was pretty straight forward... an officer responded to a call at a location I was at and checked ID's of people who were not involved. I was one of those people whose ID was checked. Long story short is that the officer didn't make me feel very welcome in "his" city. No harm there, sure. Incidentally, I had just moved THAT WEEK, and had not yet gone to SOS to change the address on my ID. I was trying to be cooperative with the officer when I offered him my current address in case they needed to get hold of me for anything later. At this admission, the officer issued me a citation for $110 for "Failure to Change Address" on my ID.

When he started cussing at me and ordering me to "Get the eff" out of "his" city and to take my "trashy ass" back to where I came from, I drew the line. I told him to stop cussing at me... he refused. I told him to leave me a lone, and he ordered me to leave the premises. I informed the officer that I had business at the location I was at, and that the restaurant owner (still a friend of mine to this day) was not asking me to leave. On that note, I told him to charge with me something or to leave me alone. So he obliged by charging me with "Interfering with Police" and took me to jail. I posted bond pretty quickly and when I went to court, the charges were dismissed.

However, this police clerk used verbiage from officer reports to dismiss me as mentally unfit to own a weapon. I wasn't aware that she was a Ph.D. in Psychology.

As a side note, this was THE motivating factor in my life that caused me to research my rights and obligations during LEO encounters. There was an incident prior to this that began to open my eyes to the awful things LEO's can do to you when their ego is in overdrive... but facing a felony charge truly opened my eyes to the big picture. This is why I am careful to pick and choose which officers I choose to volunteer information to. Had I known then that I was not required to show ID... had I known then that trying to be cooperative and helpful could get me in trouble... I'd have zipped my lips. After the charges were dismissed, I didn't do anything more... no formal complaints or anything. Back then, I was younger and didn't really know what to do. I'm not that person anymore, though. :)
 

RubberArm

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May 12, 2009
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Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
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DrTodd wrote:
A background check is done when a buyer purchases at a licensed dealer too, so although I think the law is the biggest waste of time and resources and should be stricken from the books, I think it is only slightly worse than what the feds require. Yes, it affects private purchases of handguns (Feds don't) and Michigan keeps the records w/ serial numbers (major issue here).
Hence why I have never and will never buy a firearm from a licensed dealer either, as long as I have to ask permission.
 

Venator

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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Ok, lets get some change....

Is there anything in the law that says CPL holders can't go in and apply for a purchase permit?
I don't see why you couldn't... but why would you?
Think about it in the way that you seem to think about things;). You'll figure it out.
 

Veritas

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Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:
Veritas wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Ok, lets get some change....

Is there anything in the law that says CPL holders can't go in and apply for a purchase permit?
I don't see why you couldn't... but why would you?
Think about it in the way that you seem to think about things;). You'll figure it out.
The only reason I could see, potentially, for doing that would be to wait for the PD to deny you a purchase permit for some strange reason, then whip out your CPL and say, "Thanks... I think I'll go buy a gun now. Have a great day."

But I'm not sure that would change anything about how the system works, though. It's not like I'd expect the PD to be like, "Oh... well in that case, let me change my mind about your purchase permit. In fact, we're going to rewrite all of our policies. Thank you for that lesson, kind citizen."
 

Venator

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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Veritas wrote:
Venator wrote:
Veritas wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Ok, lets get some change....

Is there anything in the law that says CPL holders can't go in and apply for a purchase permit?
I don't see why you couldn't... but why would you?
Think about it in the way that you seem to think about things;). You'll figure it out.
The only reason I could see, potentially, for doing that would be to wait for the PD to deny you a purchase permit for some strange reason, then whip out your CPL and say, "Thanks... I think I'll go buy a gun now. Have a great day."

But I'm not sure that would change anything about how the system works, though. It's not like I'd expect the PD to be like, "Oh... well in that case, let me change my mind about your purchase permit. In fact, we're going to rewrite all of our policies. Thank you for that lesson, kind citizen."


Keep thinking!
 
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