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Thread: A message for Phssthpok

  1. #1
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    Hi Mike.

    Ok, in response to your question about weather if you are carrying your pistol unloaded in a case to the indoor shooting range here in Oregon if that constitutes a concealed carry.

    Here is the law for you......

    14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. class="small"- Printable Version
    A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the firearm.
    B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.
    C. The following are exceptions and constitute affirmative defenses to a violation of this Section:
    1. A police officer or other duly appointed peace officers, whether active or honorably retired.
    2. A member of the military in the performance of official duty.
    3. A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
    4. A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building under ORS 166.370.
    5. A government employee authorized or required by his or her employment or office to carry firearms.
    6. A person summoned by a police officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while such person is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
    7. A merchant who possesses or is engaged in lawfully transporting unloaded firearms as merchandise.
    8. Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    9. Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or their members when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
    10. A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.
    11. Persons traveling to and from an established target range, whether public or private, for the purpose of practicing shooting targets at the target ranges.
    12. Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.
    13. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to possess a loaded firearm, clip, or magazine in a public place in the City of Portland.
    14. A security guard employed at a financial institution insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation while the security guard is on duty.
    D. It is unlawful for any person who possesses a firearm, clip or magazine in or upon a public place, or while in a vehicle in a public place, to refuse to permit a police officer to inspect that firearm after the police officer has identified him or herself as a police officer. This Section does not apply to law enforcement officers or members of the military in the performance of official duties, nor persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun or persons authorized to possess a loaded firearm, clip or magazine while in or on a public building or court facility.

    I was told by the range officer you will be just fine, and if you are asked by a LEO, either show him the receipt from the range if on your way home, or tell them your on the way to the range.

    Keep it in the case on the front seat in plain view.

    Or better yet, get a Oregon CHP.

    I hope this helps.


  2. #2
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    Jeffytune wrote:
    Hi Mike.

    Ok, in response to your question about weather if you are carrying your pistol unloaded in a case to the indoor shooting range here in Oregon if that constitutes a concealed carry.

    Here is the law for you......

    14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. class="small"- Printable Version
    A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the firearm.
    B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.
    C. The following are exceptions and constitute affirmative defenses to a violation of this Section:
    1. A police officer or other duly appointed peace officers, whether active or honorably retired.
    2. A member of the military in the performance of official duty.
    3. A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
    4. A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building under ORS 166.370.
    5. A government employee authorized or required by his or her employment or office to carry firearms.
    6. A person summoned by a police officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while such person is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
    7. A merchant who possesses or is engaged in lawfully transporting unloaded firearms as merchandise.
    8. Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    9. Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or their members when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
    10. A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.
    11. Persons traveling to and from an established target range, whether public or private, for the purpose of practicing shooting targets at the target ranges.
    12. Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.
    13. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to possess a loaded firearm, clip, or magazine in a public place in the City of Portland.
    14. A security guard employed at a financial institution insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation while the security guard is on duty.
    D. It is unlawful for any person who possesses a firearm, clip or magazine in or upon a public place, or while in a vehicle in a public place, to refuse to permit a police officer to inspect that firearm after the police officer has identified him or herself as a police officer. This Section does not apply to law enforcement officers or members of the military in the performance of official duties, nor persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun or persons authorized to possess a loaded firearm, clip or magazine while in or on a public building or court facility.

    I was told by the range officer you will be just fine, and if you are asked by a LEO, either show him the receipt from the range if on your way home, or tell them your on the way to the range.

    Keep it in the case on the front seat in plain view.

    Or better yet, get a Oregon CHP.

    I hope this helps.
    I added a little highlight of my own in there.

    My quandary was not in relation to carrying a LOADED firearm. I already knew of the shooting range defense for that one. My question had to do with CONCEALED firearms, since there is no exception in the legal definition for a firearm that is carried in a case, whether loaded or not.

    To wit:

    166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Department of Human Services under ORS 426.130; or
    (E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §4; 1985 c.543 §3; 1989 c.839 §13; 1993 c.732 §1; 1993 c.735 §12; 1999 c.1040 §1; 2001 c.666 §§33,45; 2003 c.614 §8]


    And


    166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect: (a) Sheriffs, constables, marshals, police officers, whether active or honorably retired, parole and probation officers or other duly appointed peace officers.
    (b) Any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while said person so summoned is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
    (c) The possession or transportation by any merchant of unloaded firearms as merchandise.
    (d) Active or reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard or Marine Corps of the United States, or of the National Guard, when on duty.
    (e) Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons described in ORS 166.250 from the United States, or from this state.
    (f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
    (g) A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.
    (h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.
    (2) Except for persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm under ORS 166.250 (1)(c) or 166.270, ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
    (a) Members of any club or organization, for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon the established target ranges, whether public or private, while such members are using any of the firearms referred to in ORS 166.250 upon such target ranges, or while going to and from such ranges.
    (b) Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.
    (3) The exceptions listed in subsection (1)(b) to (h) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating ORS 166.250. [Amended by 1977 c.207 §1; 1991 c.67 §36; 1993 c.735 §1; 1995 c.670 §2; 1999 c.1040 §3]




    Since I am not a 'member' of any club or organization, and given Oregons tendency tpo play fast and loose with interpretations of the law (see: your car on a public road is a public place), I'm sure you can see the legal dillema.







  3. #3
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    As an aside, In thinking back on the original conversation i think the question was one of whether or not it was legal for me to be in possession of a loaded firearm in the CLACKAMAS COUNTY PUBLIC SAFETY BUILDING. Specifically because it is a 'public building' and I do not have an Oregon CHL.

    There is NO EXCEPTION in the laws for posessing a firearm in a 'public building' (sans CHL) even if said building is a government operated firing range...loaded, unloaded, concealed, or OC.

    I am, by law, prohibited from using the CCPSTB.

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    And they told me point blank you are just fine to bring your unloaded pistol in a case into that building.

    Would you like them to send you a letter stating so?

    The range originally was a private range that was given over to the county, I do not know if that makes a difference.

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    The PSTC was previously owned and operated by the Clackamas Community College District and was bought by Clackamas County and transferred to the administration and control of the Sheriff's Office. It was never a "private" facility. Memberships were available then, though not required to shoot there, as it is today.

    It is county policy which is prominently posted that prohibits entering the facility with any loaded firearmunless you are a sworn law enforcement officer (on-duty or off), a staff member, or within statutory limitations while attending a class there. This policy has been in place since the facility opened andwas institutedfor the safety of clients, staff and visitors in order toreducecareless, inattentive or negligent handling outside of the designated range decks.

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    To clairify:

    I realize I'm picking nits with my assessment of the laws. It's like saying "Yes, an officer CAN cite you for traveling a mere 1 MPH over the speed limit."

    Will they? Generally not. However they COULD if they wanted to.

    In the same vein, I'm sure I'd encounter no such attentions were I to case my pistol for use on the range, BUT, according to STATE LAW I CANNOT even POSSES a firearm in ANY public building under ANY circumstances, unless I have a valid CHL.

    The same goes for having the fiream in a case. Since there is no actual definition (that I have yet found) for 'concealed', it's possible an officer with a grudge could call the use of a case 'concealment'.

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    Ok, I see what you are saying, in that case, if you would like to shoot there, let me know, I will meet you in the parking lot, a not only have a CHP, I am a member of the range.
    I will walk in your pistol.

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    Jeffytune wrote:
    Ok, I see what you are saying, in that case, if you would like to shoot there, let me know, I will meet you in the parking lot, a not only have a CHP, I am a member of the range.
    I will walk in your pistol.
    Thanks, but...that still doesn't address the primary issue.

    How do I go about actually SHOOTING my firearm without POSSESSING it?

    At any private range I'd be good to go... I could just OC (unloaded in the restricted cities, of course) into the building (because 'cased' it would be 'concealed'), and do my thing. But because the CCPSTB is a PUBLIC BUILDING, I can't even pay a non-member fee for a day of shooting like anyone else.....'legally'.

    (well... I suppose they'd be more than happy to take my money for the lane rental/ammo purchase....I just wouldn't be able to actually, you know, SHOOT anything.:?)



  9. #9
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    Phssthpok wrote:
    To wit:

    166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Department of Human Services under ORS 426.130; or
    (E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §4; 1985 c.543 §3; 1989 c.839 §13; 1993 c.732 §1; 1993 c.735 §12; 1999 c.1040 §1; 2001 c.666 §§33,45; 2003 c.614 §8]
    Phssthpok, hope that helps you. Highlighted the exceptions to the law that you listed. As far as I can tell, if you are going to a shooting range to lawfully target shoot, you are exempt from the unlawful possession. Also, as far as concealed in a case, most cases have a spot for a lock on it. That should make it not easily accessible, because now you have to fumble through your pockets to grab a key for the blasted thing.

    Now, I understand your concerns over the matter, but aren't you being a LITTLE paranoid? :P Just an observation, and not that I could blame you even if you are.

  10. #10
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    Denwin, the cited statute is in regard to a CONCEALED firearm. However, I finally found some time to devote to some serious research on the matter. I have now found the state definition of a 'loaded firearm' (which, as an aside, seems to throw Portland's ordinace about posessing a loadedmagazine NOT attatched to the gun as a violation as it conflicts with what is spoecifically allowed by state law), and the specific restriction about posessing ny firearm (loaded or unloaded) in a public building:





    166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:[/b]

    (1) “Capitol building” means the Capitol, the State Office Building, the State Library Building, the Labor and Industries Building, the State Transportation Building, the Agriculture Building or the Public Service Building and includes any new buildings which may be constructed on the same grounds as an addition to the group of buildings listed in this subsection.

    (2) “Court facility” means a courthouse or that portion of any other building occupied by a circuit court, the Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court or the Oregon Tax Court or occupied by personnel related to the operations of those courts, or in which activities related to the operations of those courts take place.

    (3) “Loaded firearm” means:

    (a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.

    (b) A muzzle-loading firearm which is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball, shot or projectile in the barrel or cylinder.

    (4) “Public building” means a hospital, a capitol building, a public or private school, as defined in ORS 339.315, a college or university, a city hall or the residence of any state official elected by the state at large, and the grounds adjacent to each such building. The term also includes that portion of any other building occupied by an agency of the state or a municipal corporation, as defined in ORS 297.405, other than a court facility.

    (5) “Weapon” means:

    (a) A firearm;

    (b) Any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slingshot, metal knuckles or any similar instrument or a knife other than an ordinary pocket knife, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property;

    (c) Mace, tear gas, pepper mace or any similar deleterious agent as defined in ORS 163.211;

    (d) An electrical stun gun or any similar instrument;

    (e) A tear gas weapon as defined in ORS 163.211;

    (f) A club, bat, baton, billy club, bludgeon, knobkerrie, nunchaku, nightstick, truncheon or any similar instrument, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property; or

    (g) A dangerous or deadly weapon as those terms are defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §1; 1977 c.769 §2; 1979 c.398 §1; 1989 c.982 §4; 1993 c.741 §2; 1999 c.577 §2; 1999 c.782 §6; 2001 c.201 §1]



    And:



    166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school. (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.
    [/b]
    (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses:

    (A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer.

    (B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony.

    (b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.

    (b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.

    (c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.

    (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

    (e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.

    (f) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:

    (A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and

    (B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle.

    (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (f) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section.

    (5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply to the discharge of a firearm:

    (A) As part of a program approved by a school in the school by an individual who is participating in the program; or

    (B) By a law enforcement officer acting in the officer’s official capacity.

    (6) Any weapon carried in violation of this section is subject to the forfeiture provisions of ORS 166.279.

    (7) Notwithstanding the fact that a person’s conduct in a single criminal episode constitutes a violation of both subsections (1) and (5) of this section, the district attorney may charge the person with only one of the offenses.

    (8) As used in this section, “dangerous weapon” means a dangerous weapon as that term is defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §§2,4; 1977 c.207 §2; 1979 c.398 §2; 1989 c.839 §22; 1989 c.982 §5; 1991 c.67 §39; 1993 c.625 §1; 1999 c.782 §7; 1999 c.1040 §4; 2001 c.666 §§24,36; 2003 c.614 §6]





    Now...it would appear that one could receive 'authorization' to posess a firearm in teh CCPSTB without a CHL, but one would be required (in order to comply withthe letter of the law) to enter sans firearm, gain authorization, then return with said firearm. (or, os Jeffytune fferd, have another carry in the firearm untill you gain 'authorization')



    Of course this still doesn't sove the issue of Oregon playing fast and loose with the definition of 'concealed', which would mean that, in order to steer clear of ANY possible violation, I'd have to OC the entire time.:celebrate


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    OK, you got me there, but their web site does say the range is open to non-members. To me, that says they are giving you permission. Under the what can I shoot question, they do say pistols, so that should rule out having to gain permission first, as it is stated you are authorized to shoot that weapon/firearm.

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    DenWin wrote:
    OK, you got me there, but their web site does say the range is open to non-members. To me, that says they are giving you permission. Under the what can I shoot question, they do say pistols, so that should rule out having to gain permission first, as it is stated you are authorized to shoot that weapon/firearm.
    And they rent pistols there, how would that law effect you if you are in possession of county property that is a pistol?:shock:

    All I can say is, with county sheriffs in the building, and armed range officers, no one has been arrested yet.

    Besides, I think you could make a strong case for entrapment.

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