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Thread: On primary offenses

  1. #1
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    I'm baffled that Virginia has made it mandatory that all front seat passengers wear seatbelts in a car. You can get a ticket for not wearing one BUT this is not a primary offense, meaning that if a LEO sees you driving in violation, he/she cannot stop you unless there is some other (primary) reason to stop you.

    Compare that with open carrying of a firearm, something that is guaranteed in the state yet it is well known that it is often treated as a primary offense.

    So how can something that is totally legal be treated so differently from something that is so illegal?

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    The officer can stop you for any violation of the law. If you aren't wearing your seatbelt and he can plainly see that, he can stop you.

    Though it's a different story if they stop you while you are legally carrying.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Who cares about the seatbealt law. I always wore one....until they passed the law and haven't worn one since

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Who cares about the seatbealt law. I always wore one....until they passed the law and haven't worn one since
    Right. I am totally against seatbelt laws. Same for motorcycle helmet laws and child safety seat laws. Just more governmental intrusion into areas where they don't belong.

    I wouldn't move any of my vehicles out of my driveway without first buckling up. I don't need a law to tell me to do this. The thing that rests between my ears is good enough for that. Same with the other items I mentioned above. I own me, not the government. Therefore, I get to say (or should) what I will chose to do with me.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Who cares about the seatbealt law. I always wore one....until they passed the law and haven't worn one since
    Right. I am totally against seatbelt laws. Same for motorcycle helmet laws and child safety seat laws. Just more governmental intrusion into areas where they don't belong.

    I wouldn't move any of my vehicles out of my driveway without first buckling up. I don't need a law to tell me to do this. The thing that rests between my ears is good enough for that. Same with the other items I mentioned above. I own me, not the government. Therefore, I get to say (or should) what I will chose to do with me.


    I agree with you in regards to helmet and seat belt laws, because it's the wearer's own safety and should be his concern, not the states, but the infant/toddler in the car seat doesn't have much of a choice in the matter. I don't have a problem with the child seat laws because I've seen too many irresponsible parents.


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    peter nap wrote:
    Who cares about the seatbealt law. I always wore one....until they passed the law and haven't worn one since
    And in my mind, that is totally stupid. If you are carrying for protection, you should be wearing a seat belt for protection. If the state mandated you carry a gun everywhere, would you stop doing that?

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Paragon wrote:
    I agree with you in regards to helmet and seat belt laws, because it's the wearer's own safety and should be his concern, not the states, but the infant/toddler in the car seat doesn't have much of a choice in the matter. I don't have a problem with the child seat laws because I've seen too many irresponsible parents.
    Yeah, until the states start deciding a child has to be in a seat until he's EIGHT, and in the back seat, and in a particular TYPE of seat .......

    no, thanks.

    But here's why seatbelt laws are amusing. Let's assume for a moment that failure to wear a seatbelt became a primary offense (it isn't, in Virginia). Can you imagine a police officer stopping you on a rainy day, or on a snowy road, to give you a ticket? He doesn't want to get out of his car. The legislation that was introduced this year in the GA was specifically targeted to teenagers, so police officers could stop them coming out of school grounds without seatbelts on. It was done for profiling purposes only, though the sponsor of the legislation (Del K. Amundson) said it was to protect drunk-driving teenagers.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    snip.......... The legislation that was introduced this year in the GA was specifically targeted to teenagers, so police officers could stop them coming out of school grounds without seatbelts on. It was done for profiling purposes only, though the sponsor of the legislation (Del K. Amundson) said it was to protect drunk-driving teenagers.
    There are laws against teenagers drinking and drunk driving so we really needed this law - right?

    Murder and armed robbery are also illegal - that's why we need permits to carry concealed.

    That's illogical Capt. Kirk.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Dispatcher wrote:
    The officer can stop you for any violation of the law. If you aren't wearing your seatbelt and he can plainly see that, he can stop you.

    Though it's a different story if they stop you while you are legally carrying.
    Its been awhile since I was in the academy....but in '01 it was not considereda primary offense. So, at that time, no.....you could not be pulled for just a seat belt violation alone. It would be a secondary offense. (ex- pulled for speeding and then also cited for seatbelt). But.....an imaginative officer could find another reason to pull you over that was a primary offense.( ie something hanging from your rear view mirror).

    However, I just imagined that it had changed in the state by now. Most other states have it as a primary offense.

    I agree with all that said it should be a primary offense. I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.

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    I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.
    The amount of perfectly legal things that you can do that are bad for you are uncountable. Why should this one be any different?



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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    DarkHorse wrote:
    I agree with all that said it should be a primary offense. I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.
    Probably everyone agrees there are many, many reasons why it's a bad thing.

    What many of us disagree with is the government's "right" to regulate all bad things.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    ravonaf wrote:
    I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.
    The amount of perfectly legal things that you can do that are bad for you are uncountable. Why should this one be any different?

    Well, in a worldwhere everything that is black and white.....then it wouldn't be.

    However, wearing a seatbelt is related to driving a car that produces statistics like this.....

    "Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes."

    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.

  13. #13
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    As strongly as I feel about this subject, we're really starting to lose any connection with open carry here.

    ~ Boyd

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    DarkHorse wrote:
    ravonaf wrote:
    I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.
    The amount of perfectly legal things that you can do that are bad for you are uncountable. Why should this one be any different?
    Well, in a worldwhere everything that is black and white.....then it wouldn't be.

    However, wearing a seatbelt is related to driving a car that produces statistics like this.....

    "Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes."

    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.
    Living.

    Eating.

    Smoking..

    Drinking.

    Fill in the blanks.....................

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    DarkHorse wrote:
    ravonaf wrote:
    I have seen too many reasons why unbelted passengers in a vehicle is a bad thing.
    The amount of perfectly legal things that you can do that are bad for you are uncountable. Why should this one be any different?
    Well, in a worldwhere everything that is black and white.....then it wouldn't be.

    However, wearing a seatbelt is related to driving a car that produces statistics like this.....

    "Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes."

    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.
    Living.

    Eating.

    Smoking..

    Drinking.

    Fill in the blanks.....................

    Yata hey
    I guess I never considered "living" an activity in the same contextas driving a car. But, I guess when we start making arguments like this.....clearly there is no middle ground to discuss here.

    BTW- What is the history with your signature"Yata Hey"?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    As strongly as I feel about this subject, we're really starting to lose any connection with open carry here.

    ~ Boyd
    IMO - the connection is that governmental regulations on activities like the RKBA or whether or not I eat trans fats or sugar, wear a seat belt or get 8 hours of sleep should not be anybody's business but mine.

    Agree that the connection/relevance should be maintained.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    I'm just saying that debating whether or not the state should require us to wear seatbelts has strayed from our purpose here.

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    DarkHorse wrote:
    Well, in a worldwhere everything that is black and white.....then it wouldn't be.

    However, wearing a seatbelt is related to driving a car that produces statistics like this.....

    "Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes."

    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.

    Where did these stats come from? How many of these accidents involved a driver or passengerwithout a seatbelt on?People die in car crashes that actually have seatbelts on, so how many of these deaths would have been prevented by the use of seat belts?

    These stats are incomplete and resemble the "statistics" provided by anti's in the effort to ban guns.

    In 2000, the Journal of the American Medical Association quoted435,000 deaths associated totobacco use, and 85,000 deaths associated to alcohol. Why are these activities still allowed?




  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    DarkHorse wrot
    Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes."

    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.
    And how many of those crashes wouldn't have occurred if the occupants had/hadn't been wearing seatbelts?

    No direct correlation.

    Just like there's no direct correlation between the number of "children" dying in gun accidents and the number of concealed-carry permits, or between the number of "children" dying in gun accidents and the number of firearms sold.

    Relevance .....
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  20. #20
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    DarkHorse wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    DarkHorse wrote:
    snip.......
    So, I would be interested in knowing another one of these activities that has that big of an impact.
    Living.

    Eating.

    Smoking..

    Drinking.

    Fill in the blanks.....................

    Yata hey
    I guess I never considered "living" an activity in the same contextas driving a car. But, I guess when we start making arguments like this.....clearly there is no middle ground to discuss here.

    BTW- What is the history with your signature"Yata Hey"?
    My primary point is that there are risks in many of our behaviors and I do not wish the govt to legislate or attempt to control all of these for my alleged safety.

    I for one, never move my vehicle without first buckling up and would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet. I would rather see insurance companies requiring these to recover benefits than legislators passing more laws.

    Was not trying to close the door on sharing of ideas but you did ask.

    PM sent re: signature line

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    I'm just saying that debating whether or not the state should require us to wear seatbelts has strayed from our purpose here.
    Yes. I was curious how something that is totally legal can be treated illegal while something that is clearly illegal must be ignored by law enforcement.

  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    As strongly as I feel about this subject, we're really starting to lose any connection with open carry here.

    ~ Boyd
    You're right and I am one of the guilty parties. So folks, I regret taking this thread down a different path.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Which is the basis for my original post. We are seeing people getting stopped and harassed here on Norfolk and even more so in other states while clearly breaking the law as in the case of seatbelt use cannot legally invite even stopping the vehicle for a friendly reminder.

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    HardChrome wrote:
    Which is the basis for my original post. We are seeing people getting stopped and harassed here on Norfolk and even more so in other states while clearly breaking the law as in the case of seatbelt use cannot legally invite even stopping the vehicle for a friendly reminder.
    There isn't anything friendly about being stopped for any reason.

  25. #25
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    peter nap wrote:
    HardChrome wrote:
    Which is the basis for my original post. We are seeing people getting stopped and harassed here on Norfolk and even more so in other states while clearly breaking the law as in the case of seatbelt use cannot legally invite even stopping the vehicle for a friendly reminder.
    There isn't anything friendly about being stopped for any reason.
    Sure there is. An officer could stop you for a burned out tali light and not issue a summons. That would be pretty friendly. I had one stop me for not having my current year stickers on my plates. I had them but had just forgotten to go out and put them on. He was friendly.

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