Rifles in California

Felid`Maximus · May 14, 2009

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PC 12001 states

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be

Would this exclude any rifle with a barrel greater than 16 inches? It says it would apply to any under 16 inches, but I was just wondering if it might also apply to anything else with a barrel length over 16 inches. I remember reading a memo here from a CA law enforcement agency saying that if someone managed to conceal an unloaded shotgun with an 18" barrel under there coat that it wouldn't be a 12025 violation for carrying a concealed weapon. Does anyone know of any relevant case law which also supports this? Not that I would necessarily do that, but I am wondering.

And I assume that would also exempt a long gun from needing to be in a locked case in a vehicle within 1000 feet of a school zone, which 626.9 seemingly says, and I would imagine that to be the intent of the law. I would also imagine that this should apply to someone carrying a long gun that is unloaded but not in a vehicle, if they happened to be within 1000 feet of a school?

12020 also says that:

(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any
ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

I assume a .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device only refers to tube magazines of the like found on lever-actions and not box magazines?

Also, are .22's exempt from the California Assault Weapons ban? I've heard that, but can't seem to find the code at the moment that says so.

For example would a 10/22 with 10 round magazines and any stock configuration, or a Walther G22 be Califoria legal?

I would of course look in depth into the laws myself before trying to bring a rifle into California, but I figured that I could gather some good information here too.

I would imagine that it would be okay to conceal a magazine for a rifle too if one could conceal a rifle, because if a rifle is not a concealable firearm then how could someone conceal an integral part of it?

bigtoe416 · May 14, 2009

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Would this exclude any rifle with a barrel greater than 16 inches?

Yes, yes it would.

It says it would apply to any under 16 inches, but I was just wondering if it might also apply to anything else with a barrel length over 16 inches.

Well, not if it doesn't say that.

I remember reading a memo here from a CA law enforcement agency saying that if someone managed to conceal an unloaded shotgun with an 18" barrel under there coat that it wouldn't be a 12025 violation for carrying a concealed weapon. Does anyone know of any relevant case law which also supports this?

Case law? I don't know of any case law which supports this. But the penal code is pretty clear that carrying a shotgun with an 18" barrel under a coat would be legal. It's not a concealable weapon by definition from PC 12001. So therefore you can't conceal it. Even if you had invisible paint.

And I assume that would also exempt a long gun from needing to be in a locked case in a vehicle within 1000 feet of a school zone, which 626.9 seemingly says, and I would imagine that to be the intent of the law. I would also imagine that this should apply to someone carrying a long gun that is unloaded but not in a vehicle, if they happened to be within 1000 feet of a school?

This is correct, carrying a long gun ten feet from a school is legal according to state law. Federal law still calls it a crime, but that law is probably is unconstitutional since Congress in all of its wisdom passed the same exact law with an additional few words on it end to somehow make it constitutional. Most people outside of California don't even know such law exists.

I assume a .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device only refers to tube magazines of the like found on lever-actions and not box magazines?

I don't know what a box magazine is, and I only have a slight idea what a tube fed magazine is, so I'll refrain from answering this.

Also, are .22's exempt from the California Assault Weapons ban? I've heard that, but can't seem to find the code at the moment that says so. For example would a 10/22 with 10 round magazines and any stock configuration, or a Walther G22 be Califoria legal?

.22's are certainly not exempt from the assault weapons ban. A threaded barrel on a .22 handgun would be an assault weapon. I actually saw one a month ago in a gun store, the guy was going through FFL transfers and pointed out that it was illegal due to the threaded barrel. It was a Walter P22 I believe.

A 10/22 with a 10 round magazine is perfectly legal. I have one. A 10/22 with a 11 round magazine is illegal. I'm not sure what a G22 is.

I would imagine that it would be okay to conceal a magazine for a rifle too if one could conceal a rifle, because if a rifle is not a concealable firearm then how could someone conceal an integral part of it?

Seems pretty logical to me. Not sure if this has come up in the forums in the past though since we mainly deal with handguns.

Army · May 14, 2009

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.22 rifles can be configured in any arrangement you like (pistol grips, flashhiders, forward pistol grips, collapseable buttstocks...as long as overall length remains 26"). The law ONLY specifies centerfire rifles.

10 round DETACHABLE magazines are the law for all California firearms. Under-barrel tube fed semi-auto and bolt .22's (Marlin, older Remington/Winchester/Weatherby etc) are exempt.

12001 is clear in its description. If your rifle is ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to interchange the over 16" barrel with one SHORTER than 16", only then is it illegal to conceal....regardless of which barrel is actually on it. Normal rifles with over 16" barrels are not part of the law.

626.9 (school zone) is clear that it concerns CONCEALABLE firearms. Longarms need not be secured specially to comply. Longarms, as cited by 626.9, must be transported in accordance with state law. State law holds no special concerns for transport of longarms...OTHER THAN REGISTERED AW's which must be transported in a locked container.

Yes, the G22 is of legal configuration.....but really ugly

camsoup · May 15, 2009

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bigtoe416 wrote:

A 10/22 with a 10 round magazine is perfectly legal. I have one. A 10/22 with a 11 round magazine is illegal. I'm not sure what a G22 is.

Just to clarify,

It would only be illegal if you were using a hi cap magazine that you acquired post ban, not if you owned the hi cap magazine before the ban

TatankaGap · May 15, 2009

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Army wrote:

.22 rifles can be configured in any arrangement you like (pistol grips, flashhiders, forward pistol grips, collapseable buttstocks...as long as overall length remains 26"). The law ONLY specifies centerfire rifles.

10 round DETACHABLE magazines are the law for all California firearms. Under-barrel tube fed semi-auto and bolt .22's (Marlin, older Remington/Winchester/Weatherby etc) are exempt.

12001 is clear in its description. If your rifle is ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to interchange the over 16" barrel with one SHORTER than 16", only then is it illegal to conceal....regardless of which barrel is actually on it. Normal rifles with over 16" barrels are not part of the law.

626.9 (school zone) is clear that it concerns CONCEALABLE firearms. Longarms need not be secured specially to comply. Longarms, as cited by 626.9, must be transported in accordance with state law. State law holds no special concerns for transport of longarms...OTHER THAN REGISTERED AW's which must be transported in a locked container.

Yes, the G22 is of legal configuration.....but really ugly

Except, if you add a forward pistol grip, you probably have 'manufactured' and AOW under the NFA and need a tax stamp for it or there's a felony because it's no longer a 'handgun' under NFA -

Plus there's 12020(c)(12):

Code:

   (12) As used in this section, an "unconventional pistol" means a
firearm that does not have a rifled bore and has a barrel or barrels
of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less
than 26 inches.

Looks like I will keep my new .22 (PLR-22) at home in SD due to the 'unconventional' nature of it and its 26 rd mags ~ it sure is fun, tho! Maybe when Kalifornia returns to some level of sanity (as a result of Nordyke?) y'all can share the fun :celebrate

CA_Libertarian · May 15, 2009

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TatankaGap wrote:

Code:
Plus there's 12020(c)(12):

Code:

(12) As used in this section, an "unconventional pistol" means a firearm that does not have a rifled bore and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Looks like I will keep my new .22 (PLR-22) at home in SD due to the 'unconventional' nature of it and its 26 rd mags

You sure yours isn't rifled? (Admittedly, I'm not extremely knowledgeable about the manufacture of firearms, but I assumed pretty much everything is rifled nowadays.)

TatankaGap · May 15, 2009

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I'll check - it might be rifled barrel - it's a 9.5" long barrel - but the hi-cap mag looks like a problem even for a rimfire -

CA_Libertarian · May 15, 2009

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TatankaGap wrote:

I'll check - it might be rifled barrel - it's a 9.5" long barrel - but the hi-cap mag looks like a problem even for a rimfire -

Yes, the mag would be an issue... hopefully that law is short-lived.

bigtoe416 · May 15, 2009

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camsoup wrote:

bigtoe416 wrote:

A 10/22 with a 10 round magazine is perfectly legal. I have one. A 10/22 with a 11 round magazine is illegal. I'm not sure what a G22 is.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify,

It would only be illegal if you were using a hi cap magazine that you acquired post ban, not if you owned the hi cap magazine before the ban

Yeah, sorry about being unclear. Having the hi-cap magazine isn't illegal. Importing or manufacturing one after the ban went into effect is illegal.

deforcer · Jul 29, 2009

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Army wrote:

.22 rifles can be configured in any arrangement you like (pistol grips, flashhiders, forward pistol grips, collapseable buttstocks...as long as overall length remains 26"). The law ONLY specifies centerfire rifles.

Can a AW ban-list lower be de-AWed by putting a 22LR dedicated upper on it (hence not a centerifire rifle)?

bigtoe416 · Jul 29, 2009

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It should be noted that I don't even consider myself to be a partial expert in this area.

As far as the law is concerned, the portion of the rifle that you need to DROS is the rifle. For an AR, that's the lower. If you have a lower that's on the list, then it's illegal.

This is the mighty assault weapon flowchart: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

It's entirely possible that I'm totally wrong though. The peeps over at the rifleman forum in calguns.net would be a lot more knowledgeable about the subject since the eat and sleep this stuff.

CA_Libertarian · Jul 30, 2009

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deforcer wrote:

Army wrote:

.22 rifles can be configured in any arrangement you like (pistol grips, flashhiders, forward pistol grips, collapseable buttstocks...as long as overall length remains 26"). The law ONLY specifies centerfire rifles.

Click to expand...

Can a AW ban-list lower be de-AWed by putting a 22LR dedicated upper on it (hence not a centerifire rifle)?

The AW Flow Chart is great, but isn't too clear on this...

The Roberti-Roos list says nothing about the rifle being centerfire. So if you rifle is on that list, then it is an "assault weapon" regardless of it being centerfire or not.

To the best of my knowledge, centerfire only matters when evaluating those "evil features" that turn your otherwise innocent rifle into a killing machine.

To see how the law is worded, start reading around PC12275.

mjones · Jul 30, 2009

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deforcer wrote:

Army wrote:

.22 rifles can be configured in any arrangement you like (pistol grips, flashhiders, forward pistol grips, collapseable buttstocks...as long as overall length remains 26"). The law ONLY specifies centerfire rifles.

Click to expand...

Can a AW ban-list lower be de-AWed by putting a 22LR dedicated upper on it (hence not a centerifire rifle)?

No, AWs listed by name are AWs no matter how they are configured. Technically even the stripped serialized reciever is an AW.

Stupid list...oh well,I guess it gives me more reason to regularly visit my brother's in AZ which is where I sent all my named rifles in lieu of registration

Army · Jul 30, 2009

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Roberti-Roos is directly linked with PC 12276:

RIFLES:

A semiautomatic centerfire rifle capable of accepting detachable magazines and any of:

▪ a pistol grip protruding conspicuously below the weapon’s action

▪ a thumbhole stock or folding or telescopic stock;

▪ a flash suppressor, grenade launcher or flare launcher;

▪ a forward pistol grip.

A semiautomatic centerfire rifle with overall length of less than 30 inches;

A semiautomatic centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine holding over 10 rounds.

12276 tells us what denotes an AW. R-R tells us which name brands are concerned.

Rimfires, as defined by 12276, are not covered by Roberti-Roos or 12276.

The only commonality is the magazine capacity restriction.

However, you cannot simply plop a rimfire conversion on yourbanned lower and claim it doesn't comply with12276.

The lower BY NAME AND MODEL is banned, regardless of the configuration. You can rimfire the heck out of any OLL though.

Rifles in California

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Army

Regular Member

camsoup

Regular Member

TatankaGap

Regular Member

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher

TatankaGap

Regular Member

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

deforcer

Regular Member

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher

mjones

Regular Member

Army

Regular Member