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Thread: Boston Market FOIA information has been recieved.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Got a tape which I'll probably be able to listen to tomorrow (I don't own a tape player), I've got the written reports, minus ages, phone numbers, and addresses, and I've got the badge numbers, and full names and ranks of the officers involved.

    They did everything that we requested, other than send a copy of the possible LEIN information, because they said they aren't in control of it. We also didn't get the requested information about the specific procedures they are instituting to address open carry, however Sheriff Bouchard and I did discuss it when we talked on the phone, and it wasn't asked for in the FOIA section of the letter, only the part above it, which looking back on it was an error of mine. Because it was my fault, and not that of anyone else, I'll try and obtain this information as soon as possible.

    Next time I have access to a scanner, I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened. But the reports themselves should be posted, so I will when I can find the chance to use someones scanner.

    Sorry for the teaser, I'll upload the paperwork as soon as I can. I will also PM the unabridged version of the paper work to those who were there.

    I'd like to once again thank the Sheriff's Department for their extremely good response to what happened. I believe Sheriff Bouchard was serious when he said that he was philosophically in line with us, and I am confident that from this point forward, the OCSD will be a good agency to call for help if you're OCing in Oakland County and get stopped by police.
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    Michigander wrote:
    and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA...
    Did they ask you not to upload any recordings?

    Can't you make it available for the public to see if you wanted to?

    Can't anyone make a FOIA request on ANY incident even if they were not involved?

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    Michigander wrote:
    I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened.
    Huh? All that personal info and the audio file is a public record - why would you promise not to let people listen? And that promise is not binding on you anyway - people need to hear these audio files - either post it online or somebody else FOIA it again and do so.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened.
    Huh? All that personal info and the audio file is a public record - why would you promise not to let people listen? And that promise is not binding on you anyway - people need to hear these audio files - either post it online or somebody else FOIA it again and do so.
    +1
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    After 13 hours of working today, I still haven't had the chance to scan the documents, I may have the chance tomorrow.

    I suppose I am quite willing to upload and PM around the recording when I can get to it if everyone wants that, but I would appreciate it if it wasn't posted. They have been very nice to us, so why not offer the same in return, whether we're legally obligated to or not? We have a pro gun Sheriff in one of the most anti gun counties in Michigan offering to help us whenever we need, and he has gone to great lengths to swiftly help us already. Yes, the deputies screwed up, but it's been beyond fixed, and I don't feel we need to rub it in anymore. Both Sheriff Bouchard and I agreed on the phone that we didn't want any animosity between OCers and his department, and I very much consider this promise to be a part of that.

    3 fairly recent incidents in Michigan are worth making spectacles of. Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo. These things completely deserve being FOIA'd and made an example of, but I don't believe this one does. Courtesy and professionalism should be met with courtesy and professionalism, whereas needlessly drawing on someone, false arrests, and false prosecution should be met with law suits and intense discussion.

    Obviously it's not up to me, but it is what I promised, and it is what I am asking of everyone here.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    After 13 hours of working today, I still haven't had the chance to scan the documents, I may have the chance tomorrow.

    I suppose I am quite willing to upload and PM around the recording when I can get to it if everyone wants that, but I would appreciate it if it wasn't posted. They have been very nice to us, so why not offer the same in return, whether we're legally obligated to or not? We have a pro gun Sheriff in one of the most anti gun counties in Michigan offering to help us whenever we need, and he has gone to great lengths to swiftly help us already. Yes, the deputies screwed up, but it's been beyond fixed, and I don't feel we need to rub it in anymore. Both Sheriff Bouchard and I agreed on the phone that we didn't want any animosity between OCers and his department, and I very much consider this promise to be a part of that.

    3 fairly recent incidents in Michigan are worth making spectacles of. Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo. These things completely deserve being FOIA'd and made an example of, but I don't believe this one does. Courtesy and professionalism should be met with courtesy and professionalism, whereas needlessly drawing on someone, false arrests, and false prosecution should be met with law suits and intense discussion.

    Obviously it's not up to me, but it is what I promised, and it is what I am asking of everyone here.
    I think that it is your call. You got the information and I think you have every right to control it, as you see fit. Now, if someone else wants to FOIA it, I'm sure they could do that. Then they could do whatever they want with the information.

    I also agree that there is a world of difference between the incidents in Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo and what took place at Boston Market. However, I think at some point we do need to hold "management" responsible; they institute policy.

    Oftentimes we are so quick to blame the "lowest person on the totem pole", but I believe such issues start at the top, either through demanding such behavior in private, or not instituting policies which correct the problem.

    So, no disrespect intended, but as supportive as Sheriff Bouchard seems, remember he is still a politician who relies on people hearing what they want to hear to keep his job.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    So, no disrespect intended, but as supportive as Sheriff Bouchard seems, remember he is still a politician who relies on people hearing what they want to hear to keep his job.
    It is important to remember that for the lack of a better term, we've got them by the balls now. We have documented evidence of abuse, and claims and evidence that they've taken huge steps to correct these things.

    If they try to screw us over in the future, we'll have some great material to take to court when they get sued, and they know it. As I said in the FOIA, the promise is for the information to be kept quiet in THIS CASE ONLY. If there are future serious abuses involving open carry, all bets are off, and I will be eager to testify in court if it would help, as well as use anything else from this incident that could help stop the abuses. They know this, which is probably why they have been very polite and helpful to us, especially in light of the offer to not disclose the officers who were there.

    It is because of this that I feel it makes little if any difference if the Sheriff is serious about wanting to assist us because of moral agreement. One way or another, for one reason or the other, I believe the department will no longer be a problem, and could easily prove to be an asset. With that firmly in mind, why try and agitate them? Michigan open carriers need all the allies in law enforcement that can be found, regardless of why they'll help us.

    Anyway, I still haven't been able to scan the documents, but I should have the chance at school tomorrow. I've got an offer from a friend to help me digitize the audio, but he will be in the PRK for the next week and a half, so I won't be able to PM the audio around for a while longer yet. But I will bring it to the litter clean up in case anyone there brings a car with a cassette tape player, or a portable tape player.


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    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    Thanks Michigander, can't wait to see/hear it... BTW I have a Great scanner... holler if you still need some help with that...

  9. #9
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Well, I'm at school, and I forgot to bring the paper work.

    But I realized that my camera can probably take sufficiently good pictures of the stuff. If I can remember to get batteries on the way home, I should have them uploaded late tonight.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Sorry the image quality isn't better, I took these pictures with using a desk lamp for illumination, and they didn't turn out too good.

    There are several more pages, but all they contain is a listing of those who were there, just the same as the Troy Sergeant listed in the third page. And speaking of him, some time soon, now that I've got his information, and a running car, I'm going to drop a letter off at their department. I am also still going to contact the MSP about the lien system, I just keep forgetting to do it during business hours.

    I'm going to upload some shots of these pages without the censored parts, and I'll PM them to those who were there, or otherwise have a reason for wanting to see the names of the cops who were there. The audio will be a while still, but my friend knows I want his help just as soon as he comes back from California.







    There are some obvious biases and downright inaccuracies in the above page, specifically how many people were carrying guns, and where it says "without incident". The person who wrote this report forgot to mention their hostile reaction to being challenged about drivers licenses being required to eat dinner. Not that I'm complaining, because Sheriff Bouchard claimed to be none too happy with how we were talked to, and obviously this has sense been resolved.



    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    Why would the manager tell us it wasn't her that called, and yet the police report states it was... furthermore, we explained ourselves, at the same time as ordering, and gave her information about it... I find it hard to believe that it was her, unless she actually called before we came in, in which case, the rest would be false... interesting...

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I'll be able to figure it out when I have the chance to hear the recording, because it says it includes the 911 call. I still haven't managed to get access to a tape player. :?

    Given the accuracy of the written report with the details we know for sure, I will make no assumptions about what actually happened based on what it says.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Who in the heck would oc wearing a pair of blue jeans, black shirt, and black hat while donning a five inch goatee? ...I like your style man. I only have a four inch goatee. I wonder if that makes me less suspicous.

    "Excuse me officer, but is the open carry of my firearm the sole basis for your reasonable suspicion?"
    "Um...that and you look like Waylon Jennings."

    Ha-ha.




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    Michigander wrote:
    There are some obvious biases and downright inaccuracies in the above page...
    Not to mention improper word usage. "In plain site..." Oy.

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    I love how he stated, ”It is very unusual and suspicious seeing individuals carrying a firearm in a holster in plain site out in public. “

    There are catch phrases that officers use to justify a Terry Stop, and it appears that, “your suspicious” is one of them. Another one is, “you look like someone.”

    Terry mandates that they be, “suspicious of criminal activity.”.


    [FN3] Thus, it is argued, the police should be allowed to 'stop' a person and detain him briefly for questioning upon suspicion that he may be connected with criminal activity

    http://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cases/terry%20v%20ohio.html






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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:
    I love how he stated, ”It is very unusual and suspicious seeing individuals carrying a firearm in a holster in plain site out in public. “
    Sheer hypocrisy isn't it? Doing it every day, and finding it suspicious when others do it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    tygereye wrote:
    Why would the manager tell us it wasn't her that called, and yet the police report states it was...
    I was talking to a police officer that I know about this incident and he stated that the call came from an employee of Boston Market. I am curious to hear the call myself.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    That's what the report says, and that is what Sheriff Bouchard told me on the phone.

    We'll find out for sure when I get it uploaded. :?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    Well, if it was her, it isn't a big deal, but she could have called them off after we talked to her, and explained what we were doing...

    Michigander, I have a tape player, but as for converting to digital, can't help you there...

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    I received my Olympus digital recorder, so if need be, I'm sure you could find a tape player and use the Olympus to record it. I don't think we live too far from each other if you'd like to borrow or use it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    My friend has a pretty well sorted amateur recording studio for his band, so he should be able to transfer the recording without sacrificing much of the sound quality. But fatboycykes, if you want to help me do that on Saturday, it sounds like a good plan. No reason not to use both methods if they are available.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Sat. might be out, other than the clean up, wife has quite the list for Memorial Day. But we'll see what I can get done before Sat.

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    local library should be able to help you with a tape recorder.

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    Michigander wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    I love how he stated, ”It is very unusual and suspicious seeing individuals carrying a firearm in a holster in plain site out in public. “
    Sheer hypocrisy isn't it? Doing it every day, and finding it suspicious when others do it.
    That isn't what I was referring to. The reason he said that, "It is unusual and suspicious..." is because he has to justify his reason for the stop. That means he must articulate reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Therefore, he states, "...unusual and suspicious...". It's laughable because the courts have already ruled that there is no firearm exception to Terry, therefore it is no "suspicious" in justifying a stop. He's saying that the reason for the stop is the gun, and saying that it's suspicious, but it doesn't qualify as RS, so he blew it by putting it in the report.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:
    That isn't what I was referring to. The reason he said that, "It is unusual and suspicious..." is because he has to justify his reason for the stop. That means he must articulate reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Therefore, he states, "...unusual and suspicious...". It's laughable because the courts have already ruled that there is no firearm exception to Terry, therefore it is no "suspicious" in justifying a stop. He's saying that the reason for the stop is the gun, and saying that it's suspicious, but it doesn't qualify as RS, so he blew it by putting it in the report.
    It is also laughable since they refused to give us probable cause when they demanded ID. If the recording is complete, that will definitely be in there.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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