Boston Market FOIA information has been recieved.

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Got a tape which I'll probably be able to listen to tomorrow (I don't own a tape player), I've got the written reports, minus ages, phone numbers, and addresses, and I've got the badge numbers, and full names and ranks of the officers involved.

They did everything that we requested, other than send a copy of the possible LEIN information, because they said they aren't in control of it. We also didn't get the requested information about the specific procedures they are instituting to address open carry, however Sheriff Bouchard and I did discuss it when we talked on the phone, and it wasn't asked for in the FOIA section of the letter, only the part above it, which looking back on it was an error of mine. Because it was my fault, and not that of anyone else, I'll try and obtain this information as soon as possible.

Next time I have access to a scanner, I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened. But the reports themselves should be posted, so I will when I can find the chance to use someones scanner.

Sorry for the teaser, I'll upload the paperwork as soon as I can. I will also PM the unabridged version of the paper work to those who were there.

I'd like to once again thank the Sheriff's Department for their extremely good response to what happened. I believe Sheriff Bouchard was serious when he said that he was philosophically in line with us, and I am confident that from this point forward, the OCSD will be a good agency to call for help if you're OCing in Oakland County and get stopped by police.

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Michigander wrote:

and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA...

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Did they ask you not to upload any recordings?

Can't you make it available for the public to see if you wanted to?

Can't anyone make a FOIA request on ANY incident even if they were not involved?

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Michigander wrote:

I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened.

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Huh? All that personal info and the audio file is a public record - why would you promise not to let people listen? And that promise is not binding on you anyway - people need to hear these audio files - either post it online or somebody else FOIA it again and do so.

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Mike wrote:

Michigander wrote:

I'm going to scan and upload this information, and post it, but I'll black out anything that could even slightly be construed as personal information, and I won't digitize and upload the recording, because we promised them this in the FOIA, and additionally, they've more than earned it with their swift and appropriate response to what happened.

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Huh? All that personal info and the audio file is a public record - why would you promise not to let people listen? And that promise is not binding on you anyway - people need to hear these audio files - either post it online or somebody else FOIA it again and do so.

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+1

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After 13 hours of working today, I still haven't had the chance to scan the documents, I may have the chance tomorrow.

I suppose I am quite willing to upload and PM around the recording when I can get to it if everyone wants that, but I would appreciate it if it wasn't posted. They have been very nice to us, so why not offer the same in return, whether we're legally obligated to or not? We have a pro gun Sheriff in one of the most anti gun counties in Michigan offering to help us whenever we need, and he has gone to great lengths to swiftly help us already. Yes, the deputies screwed up, but it's been beyond fixed, and I don't feel we need to rub it in anymore. Both Sheriff Bouchard and I agreed on the phone that we didn't want any animosity between OCers and his department, and I very much consider this promise to be a part of that.

3 fairly recent incidents in Michigan are worth making spectacles of. Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo. These things completely deserve being FOIA'd and made an example of, but I don't believe this one does. Courtesy and professionalism should be met with courtesy and professionalism, whereas needlessly drawing on someone, false arrests, and false prosecution should be met with law suits and intense discussion.

Obviously it's not up to me, but it is what I promised, and it is what I am asking of everyone here.

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Michigander wrote:

After 13 hours of working today, I still haven't had the chance to scan the documents, I may have the chance tomorrow.

I suppose I am quite willing to upload and PM around the recording when I can get to it if everyone wants that, but I would appreciate it if it wasn't posted. They have been very nice to us, so why not offer the same in return, whether we're legally obligated to or not? We have a pro gun Sheriff in one of the most anti gun counties in Michigan offering to help us whenever we need, and he has gone to great lengths to swiftly help us already. Yes, the deputies screwed up, but it's been beyond fixed, and I don't feel we need to rub it in anymore. Both Sheriff Bouchard and I agreed on the phone that we didn't want any animosity between OCers and his department, and I very much consider this promise to be a part of that.

3 fairly recent incidents in Michigan are worth making spectacles of. Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo. These things completely deserve being FOIA'd and made an example of, but I don't believe this one does. Courtesy and professionalism should be met with courtesy and professionalism, whereas needlessly drawing on someone, false arrests, and false prosecution should be met with law suits and intense discussion.

Obviously it's not up to me, but it is what I promised, and it is what I am asking of everyone here.

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I think that it is your call. You got the information and I think you have every right to control it, as you see fit. Now, if someone else wants to FOIA it, I'm sure they could do that. Then they could do whatever they want with the information.

I also agree that there is a world of difference between the incidents in Grand Haven, Detroit, and Kalamazoo and what took place at Boston Market. However, I think at some point we do need to hold "management" responsible; they institute policy.

Oftentimes we are so quick to blame the "lowest person on the totem pole", but I believe such issues start at the top, either through demanding such behavior in private, or not instituting policies which correct the problem.

So, no disrespect intended, but as supportive as Sheriff Bouchard seems, remember he is still a politician who relies on people hearing what they want to hear to keep his job.

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DrTodd wrote:

So, no disrespect intended, but as supportive as Sheriff Bouchard seems, remember he is still a politician who relies on people hearing what they want to hear to keep his job.

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It is important to remember that for the lack of a better term, we've got them by the balls now. We have documented evidence of abuse, and claims and evidence that they've taken huge steps to correct these things.

If they try to screw us over in the future, we'll have some great material to take to court when they get sued, and they know it. As I said in the FOIA, the promise is for the information to be kept quiet in THIS CASE ONLY. If there are future serious abuses involving open carry, all bets are off, and I will be eager to testify in court if it would help, as well as use anything else from this incident that could help stop the abuses. They know this, which is probably why they have been very polite and helpful to us, especially in light of the offer to not disclose the officers who were there.

It is because of this that I feel it makes little if any difference if the Sheriff is serious about wanting to assist us because of moral agreement. One way or another, for one reason or the other, I believe the department will no longer be a problem, and could easily prove to be an asset. With that firmly in mind, why try and agitate them? Michigan open carriers need all the allies in law enforcement that can be found, regardless of why they'll help us.

Anyway, I still haven't been able to scan the documents, but I should have the chance at school tomorrow. I've got an offer from a friend to help me digitize the audio, but he will be in the PRK for the next week and a half, so I won't be able to PM the audio around for a while longer yet. But I will bring it to the litter clean up in case anyone there brings a car with a cassette tape player, or a portable tape player.

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Thanks Michigander, can't wait to see/hear it... BTW I have a Great scanner... holler if you still need some help with that...

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Well, I'm at school, and I forgot to bring the paper work. :banghead:

But I realized that my camera can probably take sufficiently good pictures of the stuff. If I can remember to get batteries on the way home, I should have them uploaded late tonight.

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Sorry the image quality isn't better, I took these pictures with using a desk lamp for illumination, and they didn't turn out too good.

There are several more pages, but all they contain is a listing of those who were there, just the same as the Troy Sergeant listed in the third page. And speaking of him, some time soon, now that I've got his information, and a running car, I'm going to drop a letter off at their department. I am also still going to contact the MSP about the lien system, I just keep forgetting to do it during business hours.

I'm going to upload some shots of these pages without the censored parts, and I'll PM them to those who were there, or otherwise have a reason for wanting to see the names of the cops who were there. The audio will be a while still, but my friend knows I want his help just as soon as he comes back from California.







There are some obvious biases and downright inaccuracies in the above page, specifically how many people were carrying guns, and where it says "without incident". The person who wrote this report forgot to mention their hostile reaction to being challenged about drivers licenses being required to eat dinner. Not that I'm complaining, because Sheriff Bouchard claimed to be none too happy with how we were talked to, and obviously this has sense been resolved.

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Why would the manager tell us it wasn't her that called, and yet the police report states it was... furthermore, we explained ourselves, at the same time as ordering, and gave her information about it... I find it hard to believe that it was her, unless she actually called before we came in, in which case, the rest would be false... interesting...

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I'll be able to figure it out when I have the chance to hear the recording, because it says it includes the 911 call. I still haven't managed to get access to a tape player. :?

Given the accuracy of the written report with the details we know for sure, I will make no assumptions about what actually happened based on what it says.

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Who in the heck would oc wearing a pair of blue jeans, black shirt, and black hat while donning a five inch goatee? ...I like your style man. :lol: I only have a four inch goatee. I wonder if that makes me less suspicous.

"Excuse me officer, but is the open carry of my firearm the sole basis for your reasonable suspicion?"
"Um...that and you look like Waylon Jennings." :uhoh:

Ha-ha.

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Michigander wrote:

There are some obvious biases and downright inaccuracies in the above page...

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Not to mention improper word usage. "In plain site..." Oy.

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I love how he stated, ”It is very unusual and suspicious seeing individuals carrying a firearm in a holster in plain site out in public. “

There are catch phrases that officers use to justify a Terry Stop, and it appears that, “your suspicious” is one of them. Another one is, “you look like someone.”

Terry mandates that they be, “suspicious of criminal activity.”.

[FN3] Thus, it is argued, the police should be allowed to 'stop' a person and detain him briefly for questioning upon suspicion that he may be connected with criminal activity

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http://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cases/terry%20v%20ohio.html

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ghostrider wrote:

I love how he stated, ”It is very unusual and suspicious seeing individuals carrying a firearm in a holster in plain site out in public. “

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Sheer hypocrisy isn't it? Doing it every day, and finding it suspicious when others do it.

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tygereye wrote:

Why would the manager tell us it wasn't her that called, and yet the police report states it was...

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I was talking to a police officer that I know about this incident and he stated that the call came from an employee of Boston Market. I am curious to hear the call myself.

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That's what the report says, and that is what Sheriff Bouchard told me on the phone.

We'll find out for sure when I get it uploaded. :?

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Well, if it was her, it isn't a big deal, but she could have called them off after we talked to her, and explained what we were doing...

Michigander, I have a tape player, but as for converting to digital, can't help you there...

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I received my Olympus digital recorder, so if need be, I'm sure you could find a tape player and use the Olympus to record it. I don't think we live too far from each other if you'd like to borrow or use it.