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Thread: KTAR restaurant gun carry poll

  1. #1
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    KTAR.COM has a poll on the restaurant gun carry legislation SB1113 making it's move in Phoenix... 'bout in the center of the page. Hit yes and click on the Sanderson Ford logo to record the tally.

    Let's load it up in our favor:

    http://www.ktar.com/



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    And another poll. This one for HB 2474 - weapons safely locked up in vehicle...

    http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/292829

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    OK, I may get beat up for stating this but I am really trying to understand the thinking of those that are for it.

    If you are going to a establishment that serves alcohol, do you really want people carrying? Being away from the bar scene for sometime, just remembering my time served in them during my military days..I can atest things can get crazy and people will fight and do stupid things when they are drinking.

    I believe carrying a gun and drinking alcohol is stupid/immature. I believe being in a establishment that is serving those that are carrying is stupid, however, that's just me. For those that think different, please let me know where I am wrong.

    Once again, not trying to offend anyone here. I really want to understand the thinking for those that disagree with me.

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    Why should I not be able to protect my family when we're eating at Applebee's, the Chinese place we like to eat at, Outback Steakhouse, The Roadhouse, etc? I don't drink. I believe the bill requires that the gun carrier not drink. I frequently travel to Texas... I carry my firearm in all those locations there and I don't think there has ever been an issue in Texas concerning that. Why would Arizona be any different?



    Edit: Ktar Poll is already gone.

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    I don't agree that it should be illegal to drink while carrying. First, why would this law be different than every other gun control law? If someone is type that would whip out his gun and start shooting also the type that would care whether it was illegal to drink and carry? Second, I submit that the type of person that would become dangerous when drinking if they are carrying are also dangerous of they aren't carrying. Someone like that shouldn't be barred from carrying while drinking, they should be barred from drinking in public. If they have so little control that they can't keep their gun in the holster when they've had a few drinks, how to they keep from getting into fist fights, fondling women, and being in general jerks when they are drinking without their gun?

    Why do so many people, even so-called pro-gun people always assume that carrying a gun makes people do things they wouldn't if they were unarmed? Would YOU be more dangerous if you had a few drinks? If so, I submit that maybe you shouldn't drink in public. It's just a matter of time before you REALLY embarrass yourself.

    I'm more than a little tired of the "we have to have government to keep people from making mistakes" mentality of this country.

    On top of that, if you want to go out to eat in the Phoenix area in a restaurant that doesn't have a "Play Place", you almost have to go somewhere that serves alcohol. Why should I have to put myself and my family at risk (by not being armed) just because we want to enjoy a good steak dinner?

    Finally, which part of the second amendment says, "except in places that serve alcohol."

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    Crossfire Jedi wrote:
    If you are going to a establishment that serves alcohol, do you really want people carrying?
    Almost no one drinks at a place like Chipoltle, but they sell beer. Why make it illegal to carry there for someone who isn't drinking?

    Arizona is in the minority of states that currently don't allow this. It is a remarkably bad law. Many times in Arizona I found myself disarming before I went into some place, because I didn't know if they served alcohol or not. But I did know I wasn't going to drink, because I never drink. Why should someone else drinking effect whether or not I am able to defend myself?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Other states for example PA you can CC into BAR, restaurants that sell on site consumption and even drink if you wanted to and we NEVER had a problem. So hopefully the people of AZ can be mature to do the same...my 2cent. If you carry a gun be responsible I did it for years

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    Michigander wrote:
    Crossfire Jedi wrote:
    If you are going to a establishment that serves alcohol, do you really want people carrying?
    Almost no one drinks at a place like Chipoltle, but they sell beer. Why make it illegal to carry there for someone who isn't drinking?

    Arizona is in the minority of states that currently don't allow this. It is a remarkably bad law. Many times in Arizona I found myself disarming before I went into some place, because I didn't know if they served alcohol or not. But I did know I wasn't going to drink, because I never drink. Why should someone else drinking effect whether or not I am able to defend myself?
    Hmm I have Oc's in Chipoltle ... didn't know they served beer. ooops

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    GWbiker wrote:
    And another poll. This one for HB 2474 - weapons safely locked up in vehicle...

    http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/292829
    God those antis are dumb... circular logic much? This person rails against guns, then gives the perfect example of why we should have guns!

    Included my response to the original post.


    31. Comment by H G. (Dahwg) — May 16,2009 @ 4:45PM
    Ratings: -0 +0
    #28. Comment by Ralph A. (6505) — May 14,2009 @ 6:21PM
    Ratings: -2 +1
    I find it so interesting that the legislature is so concerned about people having guns and being able to carry them where ever they want in Arizona. The legislature doesn't seem to be concerned about the sex offendors that roam the streets in Arizona. Tucson just had incident just last night. Thanks to the police they track him down and arrested him. So why doesn't our legislature make stronger laws and put these guys behind bars for life. Why don't they tackle the hard and difficult issue of the state.
    ====================================

    The perpetrator of that crime was a level 3 sex offender. I've got a very different scenario for you. If the victim had a gun and were trained to use it, there would be one less level 3 sex offender roaming the streets. And you say the legal system will take care of it? Tell me, how long will this level 3 sex offender be in jail on the taxpayer's dime, and what happens when he get out?

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    1FASTC4 wrote:
    Hmm I have Oc's in Chipoltle ... didn't know they served beer. ooops
    A few weeks ago, I walked into a deli of sorts,past two of Tucson's finest, right up to the order counter. Where I found to my horror,behind the nice young lady a big glass doorfridge with beer in it. Now I was CC'ing at the time, but honestly I was a bit on edge since CC would be a loose term that day.



    Luckly, they did not do anything but the law as it stands is insane.

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    How is carrying a gun in a bar while having a beer any more dangerous than having a beer and then driving? Driving is a privilege whereas keeping and bearing arms is a right. Far more deaths are caused each year due to motor vehicle accidents many of which are alcohol-related. The law allows bar patrons to park their vehicles in the parking lot and bring their keys with them inside. All states have drunk driving laws and many states have laws requiring a bar to stop serving alcohol to someone who is intoxicated and require them to leave. A similar approach to guns would work well. Bars are private property anyway. If they don't want you carrying, they can ask you to leave it behind the counter or in the car. They can also stop serving you if they think you have had enough.

    The law should treat people as citizens and adults not children to be regulated by the government. A lot of people do stupid things that is true but even a drunk person with a gun is less likely to shoot up a place than he is to drive a car and kill someone in an accident when he thinks he is still ok to drive. By allowing guns in bars that also means that when a drunk starts to do something stupid with a gun that there is a less drunk person also carrying that will prevent that.

    As to someone here who said he disarms "just in case" the place might serve alcohol, that seems to be taking it a bit far. This is Arizona and the cops here are not like they are in some other states about guns. Most places that don't allow firearms will simply call you aside and ask you to leave it in the car. It has happened to me before. Either I didn't see the sign, they didn't have one, or I simply forgot that I couldn't carry there. If the cops are called, generally the same response will take place where you will simply be educated on the law and asked to leave the gun in the car. If you do get arrested you have a good case on your side in court because I don't believe anyone is expected to go into a restaurant and check every table to see if someone has a beer. The laws generally state the term "knowingly" meaning that if you didn't know your conduct was prohibited, then you aren't liable for the mistake. Additionally, carrying a gun into a school, bar, or prohibited government building or event is a misdemeanor. Not that I'm advocating law-breaking and not that a court couldn't slap you hard if you did break the law knowingly but you certainly aren't going to end up in prison for it.



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    protector84 wrote:
    As to someone here who said he disarms "just in case" the place might serve alcohol, that seems to be taking it a bit far. This is Arizona and the cops here are not like they are in some other states about guns.
    Believe me, I know how awesome the cops are in AZ. They are specifically why I have an AZ flag for an avatar, and it will stay there until I move back.

    I've never heard of someone getting busted for this, but violating a law in plain sight, just because it's unjust and typically not enforced is not a smart idea. One felony conviction ends the right to keep and bear arms. I value that right far too much to risk it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    I recently spoke with someone 'in the know' about this and as far as he knew, no one has ever been convicted in AZ for carrying a firearm on the premises of an on-site alcoholic beverage retailer, the penalty of which appears to bea class 2 misdemeanor.

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...mp;DocType=ARS

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...mp;DocType=ARS

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    Thank you all for not beating me up, as most people here know.. I am pro gun, pro life and pro God. I just did not have a good understanding of this bill. What you have stated above has definitely helped me understand and educate others as well, which this is all about..educating others.

    That being said, it still would make me nervous to see someone drinking and carrying a handgun. After time being around those doing so, that nervousness I am sure would go away.

    Woot...I have the question of the day...How many of you carry at Church?



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    If the church might be classified as a school, I don't. I don't want that hassle. Otherwise, I almost always do.... concealed.

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    Crossfire Jedi wrote:
    OK, I may get beat up for stating this but I am really trying to understand the thinking of those that are for it.

    If you are going to a establishment that serves alcohol, do you really want people carrying? Being away from the bar scene for sometime, just remembering my time served in them during my military days..I can atest things can get crazy and people will fight and do stupid things when they are drinking.

    I believe carrying a gun and drinking alcohol is stupid/immature. I believe being in a establishment that is serving those that are carrying is stupid, however, that's just me. For those that think different, please let me know where I am wrong.

    Once again, not trying to offend anyone here. I really want to understand the thinking for those that disagree with me.
    No beating here, but there was a mass shooting in a Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen TX about 10 years ago in which several people were killed. At the time TX law didn't allow people to carry a firearm into a restaurant. One of the women who was present had permit to carry a weapon but had to leave it in the car. She even had a chance to shoot the perpetrator had she been able to have her gun in her purse where she normally carried it. She lost both of her parents that day. She later went on to be one of the major proponents in getting that law changed.

    Things like this are the reason the restaurant law needs to be changed.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Bookman wrote:
    Crossfire Jedi wrote:
    OK, I may get beat up for stating this but I am really trying to understand the thinking of those that are for it.

    If you are going to a establishment that serves alcohol, do you really want people carrying? Being away from the bar scene for sometime, just remembering my time served in them during my military days..I can atest things can get crazy and people will fight and do stupid things when they are drinking.

    I believe carrying a gun and drinking alcohol is stupid/immature. I believe being in a establishment that is serving those that are carrying is stupid, however, that's just me. For those that think different, please let me know where I am wrong.

    Once again, not trying to offend anyone here. I really want to understand the thinking for those that disagree with me.
    No beating here, but there was a mass shooting in a Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen TX about 10 years ago in which several people were killed. At the time TX law didn't allow people to carry a firearm into a restaurant. One of the women who was present had permit to carry a weapon but had to leave it in the car. She even had a chance to shoot the perpetrator had she been able to have her gun in her purse where she normally carried it. She lost both of her parents that day. She later went on to be one of the major proponents in getting that law changed.

    Things like this are the reason the restaurant law needs to be changed.
    A few corrections, but the story is generally accurate.

    1) The Luby's shooting was in 1991.

    2) Not true about carrying a firearm "into a restaurant". Texas had, and still has, a law regarding Unlawful Carrying of a Weapon (UCW). If you didn't meet an exception to the statute, you could not carry a HANDGUN in most public places. The big difference between now and then is that having a Concealed Handgun License is on of the exceptions.

    3) Suzanna Hupp, the woman to whom you refer, did NOT have a permit because the State of Texas had no law providing for the issuance of a permit, license, or anything else. What she was doing was illegally carrying a pistol but it was locked in her car.

    4) She did go on to advocate for the ability of law-abiding Texans to carry handguns, got elected to the state legislature, and worked with others to pass CHL.

    Jedi, here are two point submitted for your consideration:

    1) While I'm sure the occasional instance can be found, most law-abiding folks don't turn into idiots after they have had a drink or two (I'm not talking about being DRUNK). We allow people to be in command of 2 ton weapons, automobiles, up and until they reach a certain level of impairment. Why should firearms be any different especially since we know that driving a car is a privilege and the 2A is a constitutional right. Texas law allows you to carry your concealed handgun in restaurants that serve alcohol (but not bars, currently) and even to drink as long as you are not intoxicated. I'm not aware of any problems as a result.

    2) If you think that the above is too much liberty (being able to carry up until you are intoxicated), laws against restaurant carry should be repealed because they keep non-drinkers from carrying. What possible justification could someone have for keeping a 100% sober person from being able to defend themselves or their family simply because OTHERS are drinking? In fact, one could argue -- as you did, that people get crazy when drinking -- that the non-drinker is in more danger and thus has greater need for a defensive weapon.

    I think Texas has it right. A beer or a glass of wine with dinner doesn't turn most people into unreliable crazies and thus there is no basis -- other than unfounded fear -- for disarming them.

    SA-TX

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    Thank you for the corrections. It was late and I was depending on my memory. Evidently not a good idea.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Do you Texas folks remember this:

    "(Texas) Governor Richards also vetoed the Concealed Carry Bill that would have permitted licensed citizens to carry firearms for self-defense inside public establishments without the owner's permission. She was asked, in the midst of the controversy, whether the women of Texas might feel safer if they could carry guns in their purses. The governor replied, "Well, I'm not a sexist, but there is not a woman in this state who could find a gun in her handbag, much less a lipstick."

    Richards was another "Super Nanny" who when it came to a citizens personal protection, emotionally set aside logic.

    Arizona gun owners can remember our own Nanny who vetoed a restaurant handgun carry bill.

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    GWbiker wrote:
    Do you Texas folks remember this:

    "(Texas) Governor Richards also vetoed the Concealed Carry Bill that would have permitted licensed citizens to carry firearms for self-defense inside public establishments without the owner's permission. She was asked, in the midst of the controversy, whether the women of Texas might feel safer if they could carry guns in their purses. The governor replied, "Well, I'm not a sexist, but there is not a woman in this state who could find a gun in her handbag, much less a lipstick."

    Richards was another "Super Nanny" who when it came to a citizens personal protection, emotionally set aside logic.

    Arizona gun owners can remember our own Nanny who vetoed a restaurant handgun carry bill.
    When it comes time to sign the bills the true colors always come out
    I wonder how the Gov we have now will do when the bills get to her desk. I here who is it Karen Johnson is going to run against her in the primary, What I hear is Karen is tops when it comes to the 2nd

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    GWbiker wrote:
    ...Arizona gun owners can remember our own Nanny who vetoed a restaurant handgun carry bill.

    Yes, and now she's the nation's nanny and says I'm a threat to national security!

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    Welcome to the club.

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    Apparently Virginia has been OC for several years in bars 'n such w/o anybody goin' nuts. I like the idea myself.

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    Here in Nevada you can carry a gun as long as your blood alcohol level is below 0.10%. But most responsible people will not take one drop if they are carrying. Comparatively, the limit for driving a motor vehicle is 0.08%.

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    The thing I hate most about this law isn't so much the idea of being unarmed and unable to defend myself in a restaurant (though that is an issue), it's more being forced to unsafely stow my weapon in my vehicle, which has been broken into once already.

    An important angle in arguing against this law is basic gun safety, which everyone is for: a weapon left in a vehicle, unless stored in one of those vehicle safes I've heard about but never seen, is simply unsafe. It's bad enough someone would break into your vehicle to steal your car stereo, but can you imagine the feeling of knowing someone stole your gun? Vehicles are just not the most secure things in the world.

    I am comfortable with my gun in two places: my gun safe at home, or on my person. That's it. It seems incredibly unwise to expect people to leave their weapons in their car. I'm sure people who have an overall problem with guns would suggest not carrying one at all, but since people are obviously going to, why would anyone want a gun left unattended in a vehicle?



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