VA Apt Lease Bans Firearms. Is this legal?

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RedKnightt wrote:

I believe this is covered in the Virginia Gun Owners Guide. I can't find my copy; anyone have theirs handy?

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Yes, page 27.

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As a Landlord I can prohibit anything as long as it complies with the Virginia Landlord Tenant Act.

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/HomelessnesstoHomeownership/PDFs/Landlord_Tenant_Handbook.pdf

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TexasNative wrote:

@SouthernBoy: Rather than referring to a book somewhere, I'd prefer if we stick to the law. Or if you want to point to some other source, that should point back to the law (either legislation or case law) as a basis for its reasoning.

In Virginia Code § 55-248.9.A, there's a list of seven prohibited provisions in rental agreements. #6, the one that deals with firearms, is the only one that refers to public housing. If this provision effective applies to all residential rental agreements, then why is the phrase "in public housing" there? It has to mean something.

I've got no idea how to search for case law, so if there are any rulings that address this issue, I'm unaware of them but would love to read them. But just reading the phrase "in public housing" out of the law as if it weren't there doesn't make any sense.

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It's not a "book somewhere". It's a guide generally considered as the "bible" for Virginia gun owners and available through the NRA and the VCDL, among other sources. I do understand your drive to identify the term "public housing" as that which is public in the context of a public or governmental building. But I am still pretty sure that such is not the case in the context of housing for rent to the general public in the state of Virginia.

Also, I keep going back to this;

"Prohibited provisions in rental agreements.
A. A rental agreement shall not contain provisions that the tenant:
1. Agrees to waive or forego rights or remedies under this chapter;"


Perhaps one of us will turn up something definitive here soon.

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kenny wrote:

As a Landlord I can prohibit anything as long as it complies with the Virginia Landlord Tenant Act.

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/HomelessnesstoHomeownership/PDFs/Landlord_Tenant_Handbook.pdf

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In reading this, it appears that firearms cannot be restricted since their ownership is a right and a contract to waive that right is not binding. Is that as you see it in the case of apartment rentals?

This is all quite interesting because while I am not a renter, I am a homeowner, I do live in a development which has restrictive convenants. We know that our HOA cannot restrict our Second Amendment rights, though I have heard of some other places in the country where this has been attempted.

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Let me get this straight:

1. In VA you have a RTBA provision.
2. As a private landlord your can prohibit firearms.
3. Private landlords cannot waive a constitutional right in a lease (RTBA excluded)?

One of the above must yield.

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Show me where the Virginia Code supercedes the Virginia Landlord Tenant Act (VLTA). Since the VLTA is Virginia law which means it is in the Code. It is may property and if you not like the rules you do not have to sign the lease.

The good thing about this discussion and some of the non-legal talent that is opining has made me think that I should re-word our leases to include some of the stupid things you read about from people miss-handling firearms.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

I know that the Virginia Code says that firearms cannot be prohibited from public housing, but as far as I know, a private entity who offers a residence for lease is free to prohibit firearms from their property.



Not what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but that's how I understand it.



~ Boyd

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For apartments and similar rental properties, the lessor may not restrict your right. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a boarding house or a room let in a private home may be an exception.



Does anyone know about these conditions?

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Boyd /TexasNative is correct.  The Virginia Residential Landlord and Tenant Act provision cited only applies if the landlord is a governmental agency.  The whole act only applies to landlords who own at least ten rental units.


But either way, the simple answer is, yes, a private landlord may, as a matter of contract, prohibit the possession of firearms on the property.  If you have a lease, you cannot be held to be a trespassor, but you would be in breach of the written lease agreement, a simple breach of contract.  If it were me, I'd ignore that provision, understanding that if I were caught, I could be thrown out of the apartment.  I'd rather be able to retain my ability to defend myself than worry about that.  I can get a new apartment.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

...such a restriction would be in violation of Virginia law.

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Can you point to a Virginia law that such a lease clause violates? Because it sure can't be the one we've been discussing.



~ Boyd

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Go read page 21 of the last link I provided. I would bet $100 that in Virginia, you do not waive your civil rights when renting a dwelling in an apartment. As this section clearly states, that such a provision in a lease is not only unenforceable, but illegal as well and therefore cannot be imposed upon a renter.

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Actions for violations of civil rights are purely statutory, since your civil rights relate to your relationship to the state, not to other citizens.  You have no "civil rights" as to other citizens, other than as created by positive law.  In order to bring such an action, you have to be a member of a constitutionally protected class, or show that the basis of the discrimination is gender or age related, etc.  

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SouthernBoy wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

@SouthernBoy: Rather than referring to a book somewhere,...

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It's not a "book somewhere". It's a guide generally considered as the "bible" for Virginia gun owners and available through the NRA and the VCDL, among other sources....

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It is a summary of legislation made by nonlawyers.  It is a valuable reference, but it is not, nor does it purport to be legal advice.  Nor does it include Virginia's thousand years' history of English Common Law, which is not in the code except by reference, but which is the law of Virginia (as it existed in 1607) except as modified or found to be repugnant to the Constitution and positive law of Virginia.

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I'm happy to let you believe what you want to believe. The rub comes when someone reads what you've written, twisting the meaning of the words written in Virginia law, and believes that they can safely ignore any provision in a lease prohibiting firearms. Then the landlord finds out they have a gun and evicts them, and they've got no recourse because they mistakenly believed you when you said that Virginia law says that such provisions cannot be included in a lease.

If you think that's the way it ought to be, that's great. But the law is plainly written, and some folks are trying to make it say what it clearly does not say. If you want to act on your mistaken belief, great. But to post it here as though it's got any basis in fact could encourage someone to act in a way that's going to cause them problems.

I'm not trying to one-up anyone here. I don't care if you're right and I'm wrong. But I do care about someone following your advice and getting kicked out of their home or apartment. That would be an unnecessary tragedy.

~ Boyd

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lockman wrote:

Let me get this straight:

 

1. In VA you have a RTBA provision.

2. As a private landlord your can prohibit firearms.

3. Private landlords cannot waive a constitutional right in a lease (RTBA excluded)?



One of the above must yield.

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I don't know about "yielding", but proposition number three is just plain wrong.  A constitution is a compact between the citizens and the state.  There is no such thing as a constitional right as against another person.  Waiver of rights occurs all the time, and the right to waive such a right is as much a right as any other.  Furthermore, the U.S. Constitution prohibits any state from "impairing the obligation of contracts".

You certainly can waive your power to be in possession of firearms while a tenant by contract.
Btw, there are three kinds of tenancies, only one of which gives the tenant an ownership interest in real property.  A tenancy by sufferance, where someone is merely permitted to stay on, and a periodic tenancy (month to month, week to week, etc., where the period is less than a year) give only an interest in personal property, i.e., the lease agreement, not the realty.  So under a conventional apartment lease, you're being given the contractual right to live on someone else's property.  It's not "your" apartment.   I'd say the landlord's legal interests are pretty well protected - though I, myself would intentionally violate the lease, as I said earlier.  Don't ask, don't tell.  

A gentleman dining at Crewe found quite a large mouse in his stew.
The waiter said, "Don't shout, and wave it about,
or the others will be wanting one, too!"

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TexasNative wrote:

I'm happy to let you believe what you want to believe. The rub comes when someone reads what you've written, twisting the meaning of the words written in Virginia law, and believes that they can safely ignore any provision in a lease prohibiting firearms. Then the landlord finds out they have a gun and evicts them, and they've got no recourse because they mistakenly believed you when you said that Virginia law says that such provisions cannot be included in a lease.



If you think that's the way it ought to be, that's great. But the law is plainly written, and some folks are trying to make it say what it clearly does not say. If you want to act on your mistaken belief, great. But to post it here as though it's got any basis in fact could encourage someone to act in a way that's going to cause them problems.



I'm not trying to one-up anyone here. I don't care if you're right and I'm wrong. But I do care about someone following your advice and getting kicked out of their home or apartment. That would be an unnecessary tragedy.



~ Boyd

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I'm not sure to whom that message was directed, or what the context was.

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You'd think a lawyer would be more comfortable with nuance and analysis.

My post was directed at the folks who seem to be determined to ignore the presence of the term "public housing" in the law, or try to make it mean something other than what it means.

~ Boyd

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user wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

I know that the Virginia Code says that firearms cannot be prohibited from public housing, but as far as I know, a private entity who offers a residence for lease is free to prohibit firearms from their property.



Not what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but that's how I understand it.



~ Boyd

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For apartments and similar rental properties, the lessor may not restrict your right. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a boarding house or a room let in a private home may be an exception.



Does anyone know about these conditions?

Click to expand...

Boyd /TexasNative is correct. The Virginia Residential Landlord and Tenant Act provision cited only applies if the landlord is a governmental agency. The whole act only applies to landlords who own at least ten rental units.


But either way, the simple answer is, yes, a private landlord may, as a matter of contract, prohibit the possession of firearms on the property. If you have a lease, you cannot be held to be a trespassor, but you would be in breach of the written lease agreement, a simple breach of contract. If it were me, I'd ignore that provision, understanding that if I were caught, I could be thrown out of the apartment. I'd rather be able to retain my ability to defend myself than worry about that. I can get a new apartment.

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Thank you User for weighing in on this topic. I was hoping someone like yourself might offer their input. As for me, my concerns have been answered.

BTW, we met last Wednesday evening - you gave me your card.

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TexasNative wrote:

You'd think a lawyer would be more comfortable with nuance and analysis.

My post was directed at the folks who seem to be determined to ignore the presence of the term "public housing" in the law, or try to make it mean something other than what it means.

~ Boyd

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I must say, I'm a bit disappointed in your last comments here. I consider this topic to be very important and I had some real concerns about the interpretation. I honestly thought I had read somewhere where lessors could not violate this particular right.

I was by no means determined to ignore the presence of the term, "public housing". I was just trying to find as much info as possible for myself and others. Seems like we have all hit upon an answer to this issue.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

...

BTW, we met last Wednesday evening - you gave me your card.

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Ah, yes - I enjoyed chatting with you.  Feel free to call anytime you have a question.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

I must say, I'm a bit disappointed in your last comments here.

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I'm sorry I disappointed you.

~ Boyd

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TexasNative wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

I must say, I'm a bit disappointed in your last comments here.

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I'm sorry I disappointed you.

~ Boyd

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Thank you sir. I am not at all upset at your or anyone else. I hope you see where I was coming from with my postings. The important thing is the OP, and the rest of us, received an answer.

And besides.. we're both Southern gentlemen. That, my friend, means a great deal to me.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

I must say, I'm a bit disappointed in your last comments here.

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I'm sorry I disappointed you.

~ Boyd

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Thank you sir. I am not at all upset at your or anyone else. I hope you see where I was coming from with my postings. The important thing is the OP, and the rest of us, received an answer.

And besides.. we're both Southern gentlemen. That, my friend, means a great deal to me.

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And being a damn Yankee by birth but a Southerner by choice it means a lot to me too :^).

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Well now that we pretty much have an answer to the OP, here's a blatantly off topic, but somewhat related question... :uhoh:

I am considering a move, which may result in me leasing out my current home. Since I live in a small college town, there's a chance I could end up leasing to students.

Since most students are under age 21, can a landlord include a clause prohibiting the possession of alcohol on the property if the lease holders are under the legal drinking age?

Feel free to ignore this blatantly off-topic question... I'm just curious...

TFred