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Thread: What to do, what to do....

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I spent a good portion of the last 2 days at the gun show talking to gun owners. Most of the conversations were normal but it seems more and more, I'm finding that people have a ton of bad information....

    A few examples -

    A gun owner was discussing our gun safety class with a friend and said that the friend should get his permit. The gun owner said "yeah, the only places that you can't carry are federal buildings, federal courthouses, and banks"-------- What ???????

    An instructor from Montross, Va came over to inquire about our classes and program. When he spotted the map that we use to tell students where they can carry, he argued for 10 minutes with me that Virginia most certainly did not have reciprocity with South Carolina. I explained to him that wegot itas of about 6+ months ago and that both the Va State Police and SC SLED site acknowledged reciprocity for resident permit holders. He said that I was wrong since he "talks to George at the NRA-ILA headquarters weekly and the NRA said that we did not" --------What???????

    The same instructor also stated that he had 5 permits (including a Va res. permit and Utah non-res permit)and the most he could carry in was 30 states! I certainly must be wrong!


    Numerous people stated things like "you cant carry a gun at all into any place that serves alcohol" and "you have to be 21 to carry a handgun". Most folks can be easily corrected and they appreciate the correction but it seems that a few this weekend became downright ornery when I explained things to them.

    WHEW!
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    I say we start making up laws as well. Go out for dinner on Tuesday and notice someone ordering a cheeseburger? Pleasantly walk up to them and inform them that it is illegal to order a cheeseburger on Tuesday in the state of VA.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    curtiswr wrote:
    I say we start making up laws as well. Go out for dinner on Tuesday and notice someone ordering a cheeseburger? Pleasantly walk up to them and inform them that it is illegal to order a cheeseburger on Tuesday in the state of VA.
    No you're wrong! That's NYC :^).

    I wouldn't let it get you down Proshooter. At least there are more and more people who even care about the issue. Think of yourself as an evangelist, bringing light to the blind :^). It's a never ending job.

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    The number of folks who get a death-grip on bad info and refuse to acknowledge the facts astounds me.

    It's bad enough when it comes from the antis, I expect more fact-seeking from those on our side of the issue.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    The number of folks who get a death-grip on bad info and refuse to acknowledge the facts astounds me.

    It's bad enough when it comes from the antis, I expect more fact-seeking from those on our side of the issue.


    Ain't that the truth.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I guess all we can do is fix one person at a time...

    and tell them about the cheeseburger law....
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    curtiswr wrote:
    I say we start making up laws as well. Go out for dinner on Tuesday and notice someone ordering a cheeseburger? Pleasantly walk up to them and inform them that it is illegal to order a cheeseburger on Tuesday in the state of VA.
    No your wrong... You can order a Cheeseburger on Tuesday... You Can't order a BACON Double Cheeseburger with mayo on Tuesday. and then you can't wrap it when you get in your car because it would be considered Concealed..


    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

    Free Flight

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Pro, I once overheard an instructor that worked at Dance's Sporting Goods tell prospective buyers that it was illegal to carry in Richmond and Arlington. I corrected him, but it didn't seem to me he was buying it.



    I don't think there is any excuse for any instructor to not know the letter of the law. When instructors tell people crap it undermines the certification. I can understand your frustration. I wish there was more consistency with the instructors and the curriculum.

    I know you're legit. I have had dinner with you before and I understand this is your business and you probably don't like being associated with a bunch of half-ass instructors that don't know what they are talking about.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    I guess all we can do is fix one person at a time...

    and tell them about the cheeseburger law....
    That's what separates the Pros from the shooters.

    It's also what will make a face to face business flourish when they have to compete with the internet.

    The Jacklegs will weed themselves out sooner or later.

    I also expect there will be an instructors association at some point. That may improve the IQ of some of the uninformed instructors.

    I was talking to a fairly well known instructor yesterday. He was fussing about the lack of gun training in some of the classes and how it will be worse after 7/1 because of the internet.
    That is a legitimate concern, but it isn't recent nor will it be worse because of the internet law.

    Hunter safety has been available on the net for a while now and that has been one of the training types mandated by the GA, from the beginning.
    It's easy to have a little knowledge.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Thank you guys for the comments. No one is correct 100% of the time (unless I'm talking with my wife, then she's always right )

    I just can't understand how someone could argue when I show them something in black and white. The amount of misinformation being perpetrated on gun owners is scary.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    Thank you guys for the comments. No one is correct 100% of the time (unless I'm talking with my wife, then she's always right )

    I just can't understand how someone could argue when I show them something in black and white. The amount of misinformation being perpetrated on gun owners is scary.
    This is just a truism in general. People gain security through understanding, or what they believe they understand. Shake that up and their security gets shaken. The "art" of persuasion is understanding the security they get from their mistaken understanding and offering them something better. Of course in your instance it may just be a matter of hard headed pride.

    But to argue the point in general take this example for instance; A socialist gets security in the belief that the government will take care of them. They will not let go of this no matter what because they are afraid they will get into a bad situation and "be on their own". Unless, that is, you can show them a better way in which they can then feel secure in. Then their emotions will allow them to see the reasoning.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    I just can't understand how someone could argue when I show them something in black and white.
    Actually, I understand that. When you think about who the greatest purveyors of "black and white" are (the Mainstream Media), its probably a good thing that people no longer believe something just because it was written down. Maybe your "someone" is a recovering liberal, and needs corroborating info to be sure of anything he reads.

    Still, I understand your frustration. And if you have any more questions, PM me, as I am in the same category as your wife.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    Thank you guys for the comments. No one is correct 100% of the time (unless I'm talking with my wife, then she's always right )
    I knew when I married her, she was Miss Right. I didn't find out until later that her first name was "Always".

    Rather than a conventional marriage like most people have, we were different. We shared a FIRST name, rather than last... I was also "Always", but my last name was "WRONG".

    If a man chops a tree down in the woods and there are no women around to see it, is he still wrong?




    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    I spent a good portion of the last 2 days at the gun show talking to gun owners. Most of the conversations were normal but it seems more and more, I'm finding that people have a ton of bad information....

    A few examples -

    A gun owner was discussing our gun safety class with a friend and said that the friend should get his permit. The gun owner said "yeah, the only places that you can't carry are federal buildings, federal courthouses, and banks"-------- What ???????

    An instructor from Montross, Va came over to inquire about our classes and program. When he spotted the map that we use to tell students where they can carry, he argued for 10 minutes with me that Virginia most certainly did not have reciprocity with South Carolina. I explained to him that wegot itas of about 6+ months ago and that both the Va State Police and SC SLED site acknowledged reciprocity for resident permit holders. He said that I was wrong since he "talks to George at the NRA-ILA headquarters weekly and the NRA said that we did not" --------What???????

    The same instructor also stated that he had 5 permits (including a Va res. permit and Utah non-res permit)and the most he could carry in was 30 states! I certainly must be wrong!


    Numerous people stated things like "you cant carry a gun at all into any place that serves alcohol" and "you have to be 21 to carry a handgun". Most folks can be easily corrected and they appreciate the correction but it seems that a few this weekend became downright ornery when I explained things to them.

    WHEW!
    Best course of action is to direct them to website which maintains real-time information on gun-related laws with direct links to the Virginia LIS or to letters from state officials.

    If they want to continue to argue that THEY are correct and the LEGISLATIVE VOTING BODY is incorrect on what is vs. is not law. . .well as my own sainted wife says: "you can't google a fix for stupidity."
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    ChinChin wrote:
    Best course of action is to direct them to website which maintains real-time information on gun-related laws with direct links to the Virginia LIS or to letters from state officials.

    If they want to continue to argue that THEY are correct and the LEGISLATIVE VOTING BODY is incorrect on what is vs. is not law. . .well as my own sainted wife says: "you can't google a fix for stupidity."
    That's exactly what I did. Hopefully that one person will seek out the correct info.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    I was across from the NRA training booth at the last Dale City show and heard one of the instructors recommending the taurus judge for a new shooter (guys wife). He was talking about the weight of the judge and the reduced recoil from that, the benefit of multiple ammo, etc. Then he showed his true self, he advocated cross loading with bird, buck, and 45LC. He said to keep it on the first bird unless you needed to reach though something (then you can just spin the cylinder), but the bird would create the largest wound and make "hamburger" out of the assailant and might even cause him to bleed out before getting to you.

    I quietly waited in the wings and talked to the guy (customer) after he started to leave. He appreciated the honesty and thanked me for our conversation. I provided him some links for further information and discussed the Cheney example. There is a reason after all that we issued buckshot to our troops in the trenches!

    There are good and bad in all professions, misinformation abounds. All we can do is fix it when/where we can as respectfully as possible. Lead by example in all you do.

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    A friend of mine told me anything over .40cal is illegal when I showed him my .45.

    He knows better now.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Actually, there is a law somewhere about small arms over.50 cal being illegal for some purpose, but I can't quote chapter and verse at this particular moment...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Thanks, Bill. I knew I had read it somewhere, but wasn't sure where it was...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    If a man chops a tree down in the woods and there are no women around to see it, is he still wrong?
    YES, yes, a thousand times YES! :celebrate:celebrate
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    If a man chops a tree down in the woods and there are no women around to see it, is he still wrong?
    YES, yes, a thousand times YES! :celebrate:celebrate
    Shucks! Ya beat me to it!

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    I thought that I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    I thought that I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

    Yata hey
    That's like " I never lie...or do I?"
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    I ain't always right , but I have never been wrong.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

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