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Thread: Do Americans Hate Freedom?

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    As I read this story:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/05/18...ans/index.html

    And as I see these comments:

    Sound Off: Your opinions and comments LP
    updated 17 minutes ago It is optional. I, and many others, opt for it. It reveals less than what teens wear these days. If you're that protective of your body, opt for the pat down instead. But don't take convenience away from me because you're a prude. That isn't a right you have.
    It is optional. I, and many others, opt for it. It reveals less than what teens wear these days. If you're that protective of your body, opt for the pat down instead. But don't take convenience away from me because you're a prude. That isn't a right you have. less
    yuna
    updated 17 minutes ago A few months ago, i was subjected to "further security measures" and patted down... My outfit was tight and fitting, while another female officer stood there and screamed "What's she got on her?!?" It was so embarrassing and I'll never fly through that airport again.
    A few months ago, i was subjected to "further security measures" and patted down... My outfit was tight and fitting, while another female officer stood there and screamed "What's she got on her?!?" It was so embarrassing and I'll never fly through that airport again. less
    Austin
    updated 17 minutes ago I would much rather someone see you "virtually naked" and find a gun, rather than you bring that gun on the airplane
    * * * *

    I can draw no other conclusion than that Americans really don't give a hoot about Freedom.

    As I look out over the country, as I encounter all sorts of people, as I have a variety of discussions and read all sorts of opinions, I find a universal belief, even among gun owners, that the government must be sufficiently powerful and intrusive to accomplish a x or y that some slice of the populace wants the government to impose on some other slice of the populace.

    Unfortunately, the government is willing to oblige all requests for bondage, to the point where each person is controlled by each other person's desires so thoroughly that nobody is exempt from restriction. In the face of universal shackling, anyone who argues that one's highest moral goal is to stay out another's affairs is seen as an "extremist."

    This country, indeed, Liberty, does not have a bright future. I fear we all love evil too much to repent it.


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    What you see results primarily from a misunderstanding of the use of force, and the effects said force has on society.

    There is a great book that addresses these very problems, and why people want government to do the things it does, and more importantly, why it fails at everything it undertakes, but wants to undertake everything. Check out the chapter: "The Dictator Syndrome" in "Why Government Doesn't Work", by Harry Browne.

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    In my oppinion, the general public doesn't know what freedom is. They've been told they have it, and believe they do. Until it's taken from them in a way that they can see, no one will even realize that it has been given willingly. Life slips by too quickly. There are too many distractions these days. Offten all it takes to change someone's mind is discussion. I've found people to be more open minded than I once thought. Many times I get the old response, "I hadn't thought of it that way!" And that's the problem. We don't think about what we do in America anymore. We just do. We accept whatever we're given, and we give whatever is asked of us. Time to wake up and take personal accountability for the world in which we live.

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    Squid13 wrote:
    In my oppinion, the general public doesn't know what freedom is. They've been told they have it, and believe they do. Until it's taken from them in a way that they can see, no one will even realize that it has been given willingly. Life slips by too quickly. There are too many distractions these days. Offten all it takes to change someone's mind is discussion. I've found people to be more open minded than I once thought. Many times I get the old response, "I hadn't thought of it that way!" And that's the problem. We don't think about what we do in America anymore. We just do. We accept whatever we're given, and we give whatever is asked of us. Time to wake up and take personal accountability for the world in which we live.
    +1+1+1+1...

    My grandfather never had a driver's license. By the time that came to be mandatory, he thought that was the most absurd, rediculous thing he had ever heard of. At this point, he had been driving (legally) for many years. Never did get one, and never got arrested for driving without one.

    In his day, there was no such thing as a fishing or hunting license. There was no such thing as gun control. He could buy any gun he wanted, without a background check, or paying an exorbitant tax for a "tommy gun".

    He made his own liquor at home, and that was legal too.

    Today, we call oursevles a 'free' society? What a joke! Not anywhere close!!

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    I believew many people are actually afraid of fredom. It requires them to make decisions on their own and living with the consequences if they make the wrong decisions. Freedom means exorcizing personal responsibility. That terrifies many folks.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I believew many people are actually afraid of fredom. It requires them to make decisions on their own and living with the consequences if they make the wrong decisions. Freedom means exorcizing personal responsibility. That terrifies many folks.
    Which is why they are all so eager to vote the rest of our Liberty down the drain... these types of people will never vote to make themselves have to take responsibility for their actions... it is one of the reasons they support abortion on demand at any time during the pregnancy.Having to actually be responsible with one's sex drive and libido is just too much to ask.

    And before any of you freak out... I support abortions for victims of rape and incest as long as they are performed within 1 month of the crime.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    I can say unequivocally that America has forgot what it means to be free.

    We have been fear mongered into believing that it is necessary to surrender the Constitutional rights in order to "obtain a little necessary safety"....All the while forgetting that he who would give up freedom to obtain security deserves neither.

    I'll trust in my God and my family and myself to provide for my safety.

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    suntzu wrote:
    I can say unequivocally that America has forgot what it means to be free.

    We have been fear mongered into believing that it is necessary to surrender the Constitutional rights in order to "obtain a little necessary safety"....All the while forgetting that he who would give up freedom to obtain security deserves neither.

    I'll trust in my God and my family and myself to provide for my safety.
    Bitter clinger!
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    suntzu wrote:
    I can say unequivocally that America has forgot what it means to be free.

    We have been fear mongered into believing that it is necessary to surrender the Constitutional rights in order to "obtain a little necessary safety"....All the while forgetting that he who would give up freedom to obtain security deserves neither.

    I'll trust in my God and my family and myself to provide for my safety.
    Bitter clinger!
    is there another way?

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    suntzu wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    suntzu wrote:
    I can say unequivocally that America has forgot what it means to be free.

    We have been fear mongered into believing that it is necessary to surrender the Constitutional rights in order to "obtain a little necessary safety"....All the while forgetting that he who would give up freedom to obtain security deserves neither.

    I'll trust in my God and my family and myself to provide for my safety.
    Bitter clinger!
    is there another way?
    I'll tell you if I can stop bitterly clinging.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    suntzu wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    suntzu wrote:
    I can say unequivocally that America has forgot what it means to be free.

    We have been fear mongered into believing that it is necessary to surrender the Constitutional rights in order to "obtain a little necessary safety"....All the while forgetting that he who would give up freedom to obtain security deserves neither.

    I'll trust in my God and my family and myself to provide for my safety.
    Bitter clinger!
    is there another way?
    I'll tell you if I can stop bitterly clinging.
    I'm a bitter clinger--and I'm proud of it :celebrate



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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    And before any of you freak out... I support abortions for victims of rape and incest as long as they are performed within 1 month of the crime.
    If abortion is murder, how does having a non-consensual mother earn one a death sentence?

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    And before any of you freak out... I support abortions for victims of rape and incest as long as they are performed within 1 month of the crime.
    If abortion is murder, how does having a non-consensual mother earn one a death sentence?
    Maybe I should have said "I don't vehemently oppose abortion for victims of rape or incest as long asthe process isdone while it's still ablastocyst." But I find the whole process quite barbaric and would support a complete ban on it… save for a morning after pill scenario which basically disrupts the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes.



    I am of the belief that abortion is just a byproduct of people not wanting to have to take responsibility for their own actions… they want a consequence free life… where they can do anything they please and not have any consequences for those actions. When they actually get consequences, they get upset and blame the person or situation that has delivered these consequences, but never themselves. Personal responsibility is being shirked in favor of the whole idea of do whatever you want and your Nanny State will take care of you… cradle to grave.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    And before any of you freak out... I support abortions for victims of rape and incest as long as they are performed within 1 month of the crime.
    If abortion is murder, how does having a non-consensual mother earn one a death sentence?
    Maybe I should have said "I don't vehemently oppose abortion for victims of rape or incest as long asthe process isdone while it's still ablastocyst." But I find the whole process quite barbaric and would support a complete ban on it… save for a morning after pill scenario which basically disrupts the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes.



    I am of the belief that abortion is just a byproduct of people not wanting to have to take responsibility for their own actions… they want a consequence free life… where they can do anything they please and not have any consequences for those actions. When they actually get consequences, they get upset and blame the person or situation that has delivered these consequences, but never themselves. Personal responsibility is being shirked in favor of the whole idea of do whatever you want and your Nanny State will take care of you… cradle to grave.
    abortion is wrong--except for when the life of the mother is in danger if the birth were to go forward, OR in the case of incest. Rape that results in pregnancy should not be a reason to get an abortion--it is not the fault of the child that some piece of dirt procreated them, neither should the child remind the mother of the rapist....

    I think that partial birth abortion however should definitely be criminalized as murder.



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    This is an interesting turn in conversation. To say that abortion is wrong is one thing. To say that the government should ban it is something all together different. I thought we were discussing personal accountability and freedom. Having the government make the decision for you is neither.

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    Squid13 wrote:
    This is an interesting turn in conversation. To say that abortion is wrong is one thing. To say that the government should ban it is something all together different. I thought we were discussing personal accountability and freedom. Having the government make the decision for you is neither.
    we are--but in the case of abortion where the mother simply wants to terminate just because she does not want to take personal responsibility is simply wrong.

    I am definitely for a lessened federal governmental interference in our lives and in our country--that said, there is already a law against murder--I just think the statute should be expanded to cover partial birth abortion that is done when the life of the mother is not at risk.

    And the government already got involved when SCOTUS decided Roe v Wade.

    abortion in the case of incest or where the life of the mother is at risk should be ok--but just to abort because they don't want the baby is wrong. And abortion as a result of rape is also wrong--have the baby--if they still decide they don't want to raise the child, then give it up for adoption but don't abort it.

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    Squid13 wrote:
    This is an interesting turn in conversation. To say that abortion is wrong is one thing. To say that the government should ban it is something all together different. I thought we were discussing personal accountability and freedom. Having the government make the decision for you is neither.
    Freedom stops when it might kill an innocent human. Like I said, I'll support abortion as long as you're aborting a blastocyst... but not if you're aborting a fetus with a heart and a brain and DNA that proves it is not a tumor, and it is not a parasite,and it is not just some tissue that is a part of the mother. I'm pretty sure that if it has a heartbeat... it can be counted as a human. Just because it cannot live outside of the womb does not make it killable... the same tortured logic could be used to say that an infant cannot live without intervention... i.e. being fed and kept warm... so, since it cannot live on it's own... the mother can chose to kill it if its just too much of an inconvenience.

    Freedom does not mean you get to kill human babies... because according to the Constitution... we are all created equal.

    I do not believe in God... I am not a Christian... (although I sometimes play one on TV:P), but even in scientific terms, the minute the egg is fertilized, that is a human... it has been biologically created.... without any god or spirit or what have you... but I still think, letting people treat Abortion like last ditchbirth control is sick.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Squid13 wrote:
    This is an interesting turn in conversation. To say that abortion is wrong is one thing. To say that the government should ban it is something all together different. I thought we were discussing personal accountability and freedom. Having the government make the decision for you is neither.
    Not holding a door for an old lady is "wrong."

    Killing innocents quite exceeds merely being "wrong" and is fully criminal.

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    but I still think, letting people treat Abortion like last ditchbirth control is sick.
    Rather than a last ditch method too many consider it as about the only method or at least the primary method. I have heard too many people talk about abortion as if it was nothing more than going to the dentist to get a cavity filled. This is where I have the greatest problem with the "pro-choice" movement.

    I don't really understand the discussion about giving up freedom in this thread. If we allow anyone to carry a gun onto an airplace then someone goes crazy for whatever reason and the plane crashes, is the airline at fault? The civil courts are driving our loss of freedoms and until we can change that we will continue to loose them. It would be nice to not have to have a drivers license but are you ready to turn everyone loose on the highways driving whatever they want however they want? A 12 year old driving 120 mph runs into you on the highway killing your family and we are right back in the civil courts again.





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    It seems we got off down a rather narrow path here. Freedom and liberty are much broader than just one sigment of personal responsibility.

    As we know, there is a large portion of our society that refuses to take responsibilty of their own welfair. Meaning, that they won't work for it. Back in the day before government run "WelfarePrograms", if you didn't work you didn't eat. There were no government sactioned safety nets. If a memeber of a community that had a history of being hardworking fell on hard times, his neightbors would pitch in and help get him back on his feet. On the other hand, slackers were not welcome and got no help. This motivated most people to do the best they could to fend for themselves, in a lawful manner.

    It's my belief that it is this past state of self-determination and self-reliance, the bases of freedom, that many in our society don't want. We've just become too damned lazy.

    Now, you'll have to excuse me for a spell, my garden needs tending to.

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    PT111 wrote:
    I don't really understand the discussion about giving up freedom in this thread. If we allow anyone to carry a gun onto an airplace then someone goes crazy for whatever reason and the plane crashes, is the airline at fault? The civil courts are driving our loss of freedoms and until we can change that we will continue to loose them. It would be nice to not have to have a drivers license but are you ready to turn everyone loose on the highways driving whatever they want however they want? A 12 year old driving 120 mph runs into you on the highway killing your family and we are right back in the civil courts again.



    Does freedom scare you?

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    I don't really understand the discussion about giving up freedom in this thread. If we allow anyone to carry a gun onto an airplace then someone goes crazy for whatever reason and the plane crashes, is the airline at fault? The civil courts are driving our loss of freedoms and until we can change that we will continue to loose them. It would be nice to not have to have a drivers license but are you ready to turn everyone loose on the highways driving whatever they want however they want? A 12 year old driving 120 mph runs into you on the highway killing your family and we are right back in the civil courts again.



    Does freedom scare you?
    The freedom for any idiot to do anything they want to with no reprocutions does. As in the song "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose",the more I thought about that line the more sense it made to me. You will never be free until you have nothing to lose. As long as you have a amily home, car and gun you will never be free. When you are ready to give up everything then you can be free, until then you are just flapping your gums talking about freedom.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    I don't really understand the discussion about giving up freedom in this thread. If we allow anyone to carry a gun onto an airplace then someone goes crazy for whatever reason and the plane crashes, is the airline at fault? The civil courts are driving our loss of freedoms and until we can change that we will continue to loose them. It would be nice to not have to have a drivers license but are you ready to turn everyone loose on the highways driving whatever they want however they want? A 12 year old driving 120 mph runs into you on the highway killing your family and we are right back in the civil courts again.



    Does freedom scare you?
    The freedom for any idiot to do anything they want to with no reprocutions does. As in the song "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose",the more I thought about that line the more sense it made to me. You will never be free until you have nothing to lose. As long as you have a amily home, car and gun you will never be free. When you are ready to give up everything then you can be free, until then you are just flapping your gums talking about freedom.
    First of all, have you given up all these things you mention or willing to give them up? My guess is you choose not to. But that's one of the freedoms we still have, so far. The freedom to choose the paths we take in life are still afforded us. There are reprocussions if we make bad choices. No one is mandated to create a family, or maintain a home, own a car or a gun. Those are all choices we make. Can these things be burdensom to a persons freedom? Yes. But aren't these burdens something we CHOOSE to except? Again, that's a freedom of choice.

    There's only one thing I have to do in life, and that's die. There's no way I'm going to get out of that, nor will anyone else. But in the mean time I'll make choices about everything else I do, or don't do. As long as I have the freedom to make those choices, I'll be fine. But if that freedom is threatened, I'll have one more choice to make. Either to fight to preserve my right to make my own choices, or forfiet my freedom to choose and submit to the choices someone else makes for me.

    I don't trust anyone else to make choices for me.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    I don't really understand the discussion about giving up freedom in this thread. If we allow anyone to carry a gun onto an airplace then someone goes crazy for whatever reason and the plane crashes, is the airline at fault? The civil courts are driving our loss of freedoms and until we can change that we will continue to loose them. It would be nice to not have to have a drivers license but are you ready to turn everyone loose on the highways driving whatever they want however they want? A 12 year old driving 120 mph runs into you on the highway killing your family and we are right back in the civil courts again.



    Does freedom scare you?
    The freedom for any idiot to do anything they want to with no reprocutions does. As in the song "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose",the more I thought about that line the more sense it made to me. You will never be free until you have nothing to lose. As long as you have a amily home, car and gun you will never be free. When you are ready to give up everything then you can be free, until then you are just flapping your gums talking about freedom.
    A simple "yes" would have sufficed.

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    During our War of Independence, our Founding Fathers believed liberty burns in the hearts of men and that, throughout the ages, bad governments and despots have abrogated this right. So after the war they founded the first country based on individual freedom and liberty.

    The important thing to note here is that our Founding Fathers assumed people have a natural desire to be free.

    But do people really want to be free?

    I have a rather controversial and depressing theory on this:

    Our Founding Fathers were wrong. Deep down, most people do not want to be free. This explains why people have been slaves and indentured servants throughout history... it wasn't so much due to bad governments and despots as the people themselves wanting to be slaves. (If the people don't genuinely want freedom, the government will certainly "oblige.")

    The only man who makes slavery possible is the slave. - John W. Campbell, Jr.

    Most people want to be slaves. For proof, just look around you. It's a fact most people want to be dependent on government. After all, over half the population receives some kind of check from Uncle Sam. And take a look at Europe, where almost all countries are socialistic. The trend charts only predict more of this.

    The sad fact is that slavery has been the norm throughout history because man is naturally predisposed to be a slave. Every social and anthropologic indicator, from both past and present, proves this out. An average, normal, middle-of-the-bell-curve person wants to be a slave, while an abnormal, fringe-element person wants liberty. The former describes the vast majority of the population (the "normal" people), while the latter describes you and me.

    Liberty does not burn in the hearts of men... slavery burns in the hearts of men.

    What happened between the years 1775 and 1791 was a fluke, in that this fringe element gained control of a country. Since 1791, our country has slowly and predictably returned to its natural state (i.e. slavery).

    I hope - I pray - I am wrong. Because if I'm right, I predict ugly times ahead.

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