Veritas
Regular Member
imported post
If some off you are sensing a tang of annoyance in my words lately, then your spidey sense is tingling properly. I'll be honest that it's starting to annoy me every time I offer personal experience in a matter, or someone else comes along with a story about a negative LEO encounter, that someone else seems to put them down somehow. It doesn't just happen with me... I see it happen to others when they post a story and people jump their case. So truth be told, it would seem that those doing the jumping are the ones eliciting impressions of "unmatched prowess". I'm merely offering a differing perspective, and likewise different opinion, based on my own experiences. My objectives are simple and pure: To create and inspire positive change in the world. Being that this is an OC site, most of what I'll discuss will pertain only to the issue of OC... but it should be known that my passions, and experiences, stem beyond this issue alone. I'm sure it's the same for many of you. But I'm beginning to discover a common denominator... the issue of inspiring change around here seems to take a backseat to plugging MOC Inc. Not amongst everyone... just among a few. I'm not naming names.
With all the strong opinions that people are giving concerning LEO interactions, I'd like to assume that they have real experience in the matter. However, experiences can differ... for some, their experience is in marching with strength in numbers... for others, their experience is in sending emails to government officials... for others, their experience is putting themselves in REAL WORLD situations where they know their chances of being detained, arrested, and charged with a crime are very high. I am that last person. I'm not saying others are wrong... I'm just saying this is how I sometimes choose to do things.
When facing detention, arrest, or being charged... the "standard" approach may not work for everyone in every situation. No doubt, some of my approaches or ways of handling things are different than others here. But in that same token, I refuse to accept the stated opinions that accuse my way of handling things as the kind that will result in criminal convictions. It's obvious that my methods have NOT resulted in convictions... I still have a clean record, afterall. More so than this, my methods have created and inspired positive change. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but the incident in Detroit bears isolating:
I had an encounter with an off duty LEO who told me that open carry was not allowed in Detroit. I tried to explain the law to the LEO, but when he flat out refused to listen or to verify it with his union attorney, I agreed (based on his recommendation) that PROVING it would be more effective. So we set up a time and date for the next day he worked... I was to show up outside of his building and simply walk down the street. This resulted in a negative LEO encounter right in front of the DPD headquarters.
I was clear in explaining my purpose for going there, as well as my expectations. Nonetheless, several people jumped my case, calling me things like "dumbass", "idiot", and "moron", because I did not adhere to THEIR agenda or THEIR methods. Something that kind of surprised me is how quickly some of you were quick to call eachother and share your opinions about how "stupid" I was... and yet most of you were not very quick about getting down there to put your own butt on the line. Let's recount some simple facts:
1) The people with such "strong opinions" weren't there when it all went down. A couple people showed up AFTER I was released... but not a single person that has expressed strong opinions opposing my methods was there. Period. If they want to do things their way, fine... nobody is stopping them. In fact, I'd love to see them do it... to walk alone, openly carrying, in a major city (like Detroit) and rely only on their personal knowledge to keep them out of potential trouble. That's a real world scenario... that's what I think we should be striving to improve. But the general concesus that I heard from their mouths was that they'd never risk doing it alone... they think the idea is "stupid" and that the best way to do it is to publicize the event with MOC, Inc material and blast it to all the media agencies. To which I beg the question, "How confident are you in your methods when you're afraid to put them to use on your own?" Some of you people live in complete fear... afraid to go places alone... afraid to talk to LEO's. That's not freedom, people... that's paranoia.
2) I was released with no charges... not even so much as a citation. All of my property was returned to me and I wasn't even asked to leave the area. Immediately after my release, despite walking into other areas several blocks away, not a single officer tried to stop me for questioning. But hey, according to some, I did things all wrong. I am convinced that there is not a single person here who could've chartered a more positive outcome.
3) I chose to exercise a right in front of the DPD headquarters for my own reasons. The primary reason was to ensure that DPD officers are properly trained and would properly react in a REAL WORLD SITUATION. This did not require others getting involved... it didn't require an open carry march... it didn't require video cameras... it didn't require attorneys... it didn't require emailing the "powers that be" in advance of my arrival. My personal feeling is that people tried to turn a personal civil rights exercize into a full blown MOC, Inc event... as if we are not strong enough, on our own, to do things without MOC, Inc. It has caused me to rethink posting details about events that I personally engage in. It's my sincere belief that some of the methods employed by those with the strongest opinions may actually hinder the issue of OC. You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Police are people too... you can follow protocol to bring up your concerns. The best answer is not always to organize a demonstration or threaten lawsuit. The lawyer card is dropped on the table around here more than anything else, it seems. When you talk about lawyers that much, you really only demonstrate your dependence on them to be free. And I'd really love to see someone put their money where their mouth is and shell out $3,500 to a lawyer to sue for something that you'll get nothing out of. My guess is that not a single person here has done that yet. Am I different? You bet. I don't threaten with lawyers... I follow through with actions. And despite the scare tactics some of you try to employ, I'm still a free man with no criminal convictions. Yes... it's true. Fancy that. And for the record, this incident in Detroit is NOT the first jam I've been in. It is my first OC issue, yes... but I truly do have a decent amount of experience in handling myself in LEO and court encounters. It's not that I'm some criminal, law breaker, or troublemaker... let's just say that I sometimes push the envelope on things in order to prove points or assert personal freedoms. Like some of you, I may also write an occassional letter or fire off an email every now and again... but I also do more than that when I feel the need.
4) I didn't sit on the idea for 6 weeks talking about... I didn't seek a big PR event... I didn't look for protection in numbers... I simply set a task with a goal, armed with the knowledge in my head and the courage in my heart, and took a stroll in front of the DPD headquarters. Some of the people who had the most to say to me about it have had ample opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, but have not answered the call. In other words, they armchaired my experiences instead of experiencing it for themselves. Yes... this is a direct shot at those of you who are the most outspoken: Rather than TELL people how to handle a situation, why don't you put yourself in one and DEMONSTRATE it? And I'm not talking about getting together with 10 or 15 of your buddies and walking around... I heard Belle Isle mentioned as a host of an OC event sometime about a year ago as one of the things that may have "softened" Detroit up. I'll be the jerk and ask the tough question: What exactly did that event accomplish in Detroit? It would seem that with all this "two years of road paving before I walked in front of the HQ", a lot of road was left unfinished... because the DPD was still very much unaware of OC laws. Bringing me to my next point...
5) Less than a week after the initial issue, the objective I set was complete. A city attorney authored a memo and sent it to all stations instructing them on the proper OC laws. It overwrote the previous department policy. Accomplishing this didn't require a lawyer... it didn't require an argument with any administrative body... it didn't require mobilization of open carriers downtown. It only required me putting myself in a position to PROVE the law by PERSONALLY DEMONSTRATING it. Then I just walked in to the Office of the Chief Investigator to follow up. Which, by the way, I also did by myself. I even managed to exit the situation on super good terms with the DPD... even being encouraged to apply to their department because the man in charge seemed to think my methodologies were something the DPD could use. I respectfully declined... I believe I belong on this side of the fence at this point in my life.
On the subject of talking with LEO's, some of you are quick to lambaste people who do that. I may choose to talk with an LEO... I may not. I gauge the situation on a case by case basis... and it's largely based on the officer's opening sequence. Some of you here would sooner hang me for admitting cooperation with an LEO than to admit that not all officers are after your freedom. Even with "nice" officers, I still assert my rights... but I may not go out of my way to be obstinate. I reserve my obstinance for officers who cross the line with me... not for the ones who are legitimately seeking to uphold proper law. Example: When I made my complaint at the DPD OCI last week, the Seargent asked for my ID and CPL when he saw that I was carrying. I was polite and told him "I'll volunteer this information to you because I don't see how it can be used against me here." He smiled and said thank you... then returned them to me promptly. I could've been obstinate and said, "No." But why? As I saw it, THEY were the ones facing trouble, not me. Some of you, however, would jump all over this and say things like "Blah blah blah I'd NEVER show my ID blah blah blah you shouldn't have done that blah blah blah". In reality, I see many examples where people SAY one thing, but DO another. Example: The Boston Market Incident that some folks here were involved in... the FOIA document indicates that 4 out of 5 you volunteered your ID's with no problem. Nearly every negative LEO story that I've seen posted admits that the detainee volunteered their ID and/or consented to a search. I'll admit that there are instances in which I'll volunteer things, and then there are those that I don't. If I say that I will or won't respond a certain way in a certain situation, I stand firm on that when the situation presents itself. You can take that to the bank.
It's an impression I'm beginning to develop about people here that there is only way to go about doing things. I'm merely offering differing perspectives. And I'm basing it on experience... I'm not armchairing. My personal experience is that, in a real encounter, you've got to think on your feet. Zipping lips can make your problems worse when you're dealing with a poorly informed LEO. You can bet that if I didn't verbally assert my rights in Detroit, that I would've probably found myself being booked at the local jail. I said just enough, but not too much, to plant the seed of doubt in the officers mind that maybe, just MAYBE, he should do a little more due dilligence before he took me in. Unfortunately, in his case it would seem that it pissed him off..l but at least I didn't end up with black ink all over my hands and having to go before the prosecuter to have the case dropped. Perhaps the one MOC'er who witnessed my recent situation would care to chime in and attest to my demeanor and manner of speech during my interaction with the DPD? He was on a lunch break from work (so he was unarmed), but he did happen to witness the entire event from start to finish. If I'm at all embellishing or otherwise fibbing about it, let him come forth and call me out on it. And I'd be interested in hearing his perspective about what would've happened had I just kept my mouth shut and not said a word. MY belief is that I would've been hauled off to jail... being left to plead my case before the prosecutor.
My desire is not to create media frenzies and lawsuits... my desire is to inspire and create positive change. Sometimes standing firm in front of an LEO, rather than softly zipping my lips or sending them information via email, encourages them to think a little more. That's my goal. That's why I do what I do. And if it aint for you, then I'd kindly request you get off my butt about it. And while I'm requesting things, before anyone jumps someone elses butt for their response in an LEO interaction, how about you post some stories of your own interactions so that we can all see how much real world experience you have. Just a suggestion.
If some off you are sensing a tang of annoyance in my words lately, then your spidey sense is tingling properly. I'll be honest that it's starting to annoy me every time I offer personal experience in a matter, or someone else comes along with a story about a negative LEO encounter, that someone else seems to put them down somehow. It doesn't just happen with me... I see it happen to others when they post a story and people jump their case. So truth be told, it would seem that those doing the jumping are the ones eliciting impressions of "unmatched prowess". I'm merely offering a differing perspective, and likewise different opinion, based on my own experiences. My objectives are simple and pure: To create and inspire positive change in the world. Being that this is an OC site, most of what I'll discuss will pertain only to the issue of OC... but it should be known that my passions, and experiences, stem beyond this issue alone. I'm sure it's the same for many of you. But I'm beginning to discover a common denominator... the issue of inspiring change around here seems to take a backseat to plugging MOC Inc. Not amongst everyone... just among a few. I'm not naming names.
With all the strong opinions that people are giving concerning LEO interactions, I'd like to assume that they have real experience in the matter. However, experiences can differ... for some, their experience is in marching with strength in numbers... for others, their experience is in sending emails to government officials... for others, their experience is putting themselves in REAL WORLD situations where they know their chances of being detained, arrested, and charged with a crime are very high. I am that last person. I'm not saying others are wrong... I'm just saying this is how I sometimes choose to do things.
When facing detention, arrest, or being charged... the "standard" approach may not work for everyone in every situation. No doubt, some of my approaches or ways of handling things are different than others here. But in that same token, I refuse to accept the stated opinions that accuse my way of handling things as the kind that will result in criminal convictions. It's obvious that my methods have NOT resulted in convictions... I still have a clean record, afterall. More so than this, my methods have created and inspired positive change. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but the incident in Detroit bears isolating:
I had an encounter with an off duty LEO who told me that open carry was not allowed in Detroit. I tried to explain the law to the LEO, but when he flat out refused to listen or to verify it with his union attorney, I agreed (based on his recommendation) that PROVING it would be more effective. So we set up a time and date for the next day he worked... I was to show up outside of his building and simply walk down the street. This resulted in a negative LEO encounter right in front of the DPD headquarters.
I was clear in explaining my purpose for going there, as well as my expectations. Nonetheless, several people jumped my case, calling me things like "dumbass", "idiot", and "moron", because I did not adhere to THEIR agenda or THEIR methods. Something that kind of surprised me is how quickly some of you were quick to call eachother and share your opinions about how "stupid" I was... and yet most of you were not very quick about getting down there to put your own butt on the line. Let's recount some simple facts:
1) The people with such "strong opinions" weren't there when it all went down. A couple people showed up AFTER I was released... but not a single person that has expressed strong opinions opposing my methods was there. Period. If they want to do things their way, fine... nobody is stopping them. In fact, I'd love to see them do it... to walk alone, openly carrying, in a major city (like Detroit) and rely only on their personal knowledge to keep them out of potential trouble. That's a real world scenario... that's what I think we should be striving to improve. But the general concesus that I heard from their mouths was that they'd never risk doing it alone... they think the idea is "stupid" and that the best way to do it is to publicize the event with MOC, Inc material and blast it to all the media agencies. To which I beg the question, "How confident are you in your methods when you're afraid to put them to use on your own?" Some of you people live in complete fear... afraid to go places alone... afraid to talk to LEO's. That's not freedom, people... that's paranoia.
2) I was released with no charges... not even so much as a citation. All of my property was returned to me and I wasn't even asked to leave the area. Immediately after my release, despite walking into other areas several blocks away, not a single officer tried to stop me for questioning. But hey, according to some, I did things all wrong. I am convinced that there is not a single person here who could've chartered a more positive outcome.
3) I chose to exercise a right in front of the DPD headquarters for my own reasons. The primary reason was to ensure that DPD officers are properly trained and would properly react in a REAL WORLD SITUATION. This did not require others getting involved... it didn't require an open carry march... it didn't require video cameras... it didn't require attorneys... it didn't require emailing the "powers that be" in advance of my arrival. My personal feeling is that people tried to turn a personal civil rights exercize into a full blown MOC, Inc event... as if we are not strong enough, on our own, to do things without MOC, Inc. It has caused me to rethink posting details about events that I personally engage in. It's my sincere belief that some of the methods employed by those with the strongest opinions may actually hinder the issue of OC. You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Police are people too... you can follow protocol to bring up your concerns. The best answer is not always to organize a demonstration or threaten lawsuit. The lawyer card is dropped on the table around here more than anything else, it seems. When you talk about lawyers that much, you really only demonstrate your dependence on them to be free. And I'd really love to see someone put their money where their mouth is and shell out $3,500 to a lawyer to sue for something that you'll get nothing out of. My guess is that not a single person here has done that yet. Am I different? You bet. I don't threaten with lawyers... I follow through with actions. And despite the scare tactics some of you try to employ, I'm still a free man with no criminal convictions. Yes... it's true. Fancy that. And for the record, this incident in Detroit is NOT the first jam I've been in. It is my first OC issue, yes... but I truly do have a decent amount of experience in handling myself in LEO and court encounters. It's not that I'm some criminal, law breaker, or troublemaker... let's just say that I sometimes push the envelope on things in order to prove points or assert personal freedoms. Like some of you, I may also write an occassional letter or fire off an email every now and again... but I also do more than that when I feel the need.
4) I didn't sit on the idea for 6 weeks talking about... I didn't seek a big PR event... I didn't look for protection in numbers... I simply set a task with a goal, armed with the knowledge in my head and the courage in my heart, and took a stroll in front of the DPD headquarters. Some of the people who had the most to say to me about it have had ample opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, but have not answered the call. In other words, they armchaired my experiences instead of experiencing it for themselves. Yes... this is a direct shot at those of you who are the most outspoken: Rather than TELL people how to handle a situation, why don't you put yourself in one and DEMONSTRATE it? And I'm not talking about getting together with 10 or 15 of your buddies and walking around... I heard Belle Isle mentioned as a host of an OC event sometime about a year ago as one of the things that may have "softened" Detroit up. I'll be the jerk and ask the tough question: What exactly did that event accomplish in Detroit? It would seem that with all this "two years of road paving before I walked in front of the HQ", a lot of road was left unfinished... because the DPD was still very much unaware of OC laws. Bringing me to my next point...
5) Less than a week after the initial issue, the objective I set was complete. A city attorney authored a memo and sent it to all stations instructing them on the proper OC laws. It overwrote the previous department policy. Accomplishing this didn't require a lawyer... it didn't require an argument with any administrative body... it didn't require mobilization of open carriers downtown. It only required me putting myself in a position to PROVE the law by PERSONALLY DEMONSTRATING it. Then I just walked in to the Office of the Chief Investigator to follow up. Which, by the way, I also did by myself. I even managed to exit the situation on super good terms with the DPD... even being encouraged to apply to their department because the man in charge seemed to think my methodologies were something the DPD could use. I respectfully declined... I believe I belong on this side of the fence at this point in my life.
On the subject of talking with LEO's, some of you are quick to lambaste people who do that. I may choose to talk with an LEO... I may not. I gauge the situation on a case by case basis... and it's largely based on the officer's opening sequence. Some of you here would sooner hang me for admitting cooperation with an LEO than to admit that not all officers are after your freedom. Even with "nice" officers, I still assert my rights... but I may not go out of my way to be obstinate. I reserve my obstinance for officers who cross the line with me... not for the ones who are legitimately seeking to uphold proper law. Example: When I made my complaint at the DPD OCI last week, the Seargent asked for my ID and CPL when he saw that I was carrying. I was polite and told him "I'll volunteer this information to you because I don't see how it can be used against me here." He smiled and said thank you... then returned them to me promptly. I could've been obstinate and said, "No." But why? As I saw it, THEY were the ones facing trouble, not me. Some of you, however, would jump all over this and say things like "Blah blah blah I'd NEVER show my ID blah blah blah you shouldn't have done that blah blah blah". In reality, I see many examples where people SAY one thing, but DO another. Example: The Boston Market Incident that some folks here were involved in... the FOIA document indicates that 4 out of 5 you volunteered your ID's with no problem. Nearly every negative LEO story that I've seen posted admits that the detainee volunteered their ID and/or consented to a search. I'll admit that there are instances in which I'll volunteer things, and then there are those that I don't. If I say that I will or won't respond a certain way in a certain situation, I stand firm on that when the situation presents itself. You can take that to the bank.
It's an impression I'm beginning to develop about people here that there is only way to go about doing things. I'm merely offering differing perspectives. And I'm basing it on experience... I'm not armchairing. My personal experience is that, in a real encounter, you've got to think on your feet. Zipping lips can make your problems worse when you're dealing with a poorly informed LEO. You can bet that if I didn't verbally assert my rights in Detroit, that I would've probably found myself being booked at the local jail. I said just enough, but not too much, to plant the seed of doubt in the officers mind that maybe, just MAYBE, he should do a little more due dilligence before he took me in. Unfortunately, in his case it would seem that it pissed him off..l but at least I didn't end up with black ink all over my hands and having to go before the prosecuter to have the case dropped. Perhaps the one MOC'er who witnessed my recent situation would care to chime in and attest to my demeanor and manner of speech during my interaction with the DPD? He was on a lunch break from work (so he was unarmed), but he did happen to witness the entire event from start to finish. If I'm at all embellishing or otherwise fibbing about it, let him come forth and call me out on it. And I'd be interested in hearing his perspective about what would've happened had I just kept my mouth shut and not said a word. MY belief is that I would've been hauled off to jail... being left to plead my case before the prosecutor.
My desire is not to create media frenzies and lawsuits... my desire is to inspire and create positive change. Sometimes standing firm in front of an LEO, rather than softly zipping my lips or sending them information via email, encourages them to think a little more. That's my goal. That's why I do what I do. And if it aint for you, then I'd kindly request you get off my butt about it. And while I'm requesting things, before anyone jumps someone elses butt for their response in an LEO interaction, how about you post some stories of your own interactions so that we can all see how much real world experience you have. Just a suggestion.
