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There Is More Than One Approach

Veritas

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BB62 wrote:
Maybe we are talking about two different things, but a fellow who lives fairly close to me was a victim of just such a charge. To the best of my knowledge, his ability to recovereven attorney fees (at minimum) is limited. Do you have a suggestion?
My suggestion: Skip the attorney, learn the law, and represent himself.

One of the major problems with our system today is that attorneys charge WAY too much. They make it nearly impossible for average folks to fight back. This practice continues because people automatically assume they need an attorney anytime the word "court" is mentioned... this gives attorneys a green light to charge basically whatever they want. I'm all for someone earning a living... but $3,500 for 60 minutes in court is a little much, if you ask me. Especially when most attorney's already have the case material put together because they generally take many of the same types of cases.
 

Veritas

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hamaneggs wrote
Ok, you explain where my guilt was and why Feigers office and one civil rights lawyer wouldn't take the case. 9/11/06 I was parked legaly on a residential street. While parked I consumed 1.5 pints of vodka for pain relief. No keys in ignition. Keys in ignition does not matter. If you have care, custody, and control of the vehicle, you can be considered DUI.

As for drinking 1.5 pints of Vodka for "pain relief" while sitting in your vehicle... that probably wouldn't sound kosher to a judge or jury. 1.5 pints is a lot to drink, as evidenced by you passing out and being transported to a hospital.

Passed out. Two hours later a woman called LEO's. LEO's unlocked car, put me in ambulance to the hospital. Woke up 8am in emergency room with open intoxicant ticket. Based on what you've written so far, I would say you'd have a real hard time fighting an open intoxicant ticket because it sounds like were drinking IN your vehicle... that's an obvious open intoxicant.

9/19/06 officers come to house,arrest me for drunk driving. As previously mentioned, you can be found guilty of DUI just by sitting in your vehicle... whether or not the keys are in the ignition. I'm not saying I agree with the law... but that's the way things are at this moment.

20 days later Judge adjourns until prosecutor can talk to the woman who called police in first place. Prosecutor probably wanted to hear what the woman had to say and whether or not she would cooperate with the prosecution in bringing other charges against you.

Police write in their report the car was running, woman says the car was not running when she called or when they arrived. 20 days later all charges dropped except the open intoxicant( 2 empty bottles) ticket. Prosecutor might have dropped the DUI charges because the woman contridicted the officer's report. An attorney worth their salt would pounce all over that in court. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have pursued the charges... but they probably figured that no harm was done and they already had you on another charge anyway. You have no real defense to fight the open intoxicant but you did stand a chance to fight the DUI... it sounds like the prosecutor took the path of least resistance.

Feigers office said the fact I accepted the open intoxicant ticket would make it hard to convince a jury. Sounds about right. Once a jury hears that you passed out in your car after consuming so much alcohol... and that you basically admitted guilt by accepting the open intoxicant charge... it probably wouldn't be far fetched for them to believe that you were DUI.

It didn't matter the main witness would testify the police report was an obvious lie to the Judge who provided the warrant because " police may have made a mistake in not knowing the difference between a running car or a car that is not running" . I'll agree that this sounds like a line of BS. But at the end of the day, you should be thankful that the officers DID screw up... it is very likely the only thing that saved you from being brought up on charges of DUI. Just sitting in your vehicle while drunk is enough to charge you. If the officer's hadn't lied in their report (saying the engine was running, a direct contradiction of the lady who called them), you probably would've been charged for that as well. This is an example where an inaccurate police report can cost the prosecution a "layup" conviction.

Now what was your felony arrest? You can't remember? I do remember. I was arrested and charged with Interferring with Police. In a nutshell, officers responded to a call about someone I was with while on private property. The subject was an acquaintence of mine (at the time), but I had no involvement in whatever he was doing or trying to do. In fact, when police arrived on the scene, I was initially cooperative... I volunteered my ID and volunteered my new address (I had just moved that week) in case the officers needed to follow up with me later. My volunteering of this information resulted in a $100-something citation for "failure to change address on ID". This citation, combined with one of the officers berrating me with unprofessional language, caused me to decide that I was done talking to them. When I no longer wished to cooperate, I was ordered to leave the premises. However I was on private property, had business there, and the owner/operator of the premises hadn't asked me to leave. I explained this to the officer... he was unamused. He continued to berrate me and threatened to arrest me if I didn't leave the premises. More specifically, he told me to "Get the f**k back to my own city" because he said I wasn't welcome in HIS town. At this, I told the officer to either charge me with something or to leave me alone... and that I was not going anywhere until my business was done or the owner/operator asked me to leave. His response was to arrest me for "interferring with police". Needless to say, the charge didn't stick.

This happened some years ago... it was one of my first highly negative LEO encounters and my very first arrest. Before this, I had minor issues here resulting in being detained... but I had never actually been arrested and charged with anything. After this incident, I was so disgusted that I sought to learn as much as I could about my responsibilities during an LEO encounter to avert situations like this again in the future. I get along with LEO's just fine... but every now and then, I run into a real ballbuster... one that seems to let their ego run in overdrive and who tries to talk/walk all over people. That doesn't fly with me. Most of the time, other officers end up getting involved and the incidents do not progress to anything more than "threat of arrest". Sometimes they result in detainment... sometimes arrest. Admittadly, shooting my mouth off back to officers who berrate me has been the source of some of these problems. But over the years, I've learned to pick my battles. These days, it takes a real special officer to coax me into firing off at the mouth. I believe the last time I did this was last summer when two officers pulled over my friend (I was riding passenger). We had a girl in the backseat (a girl I was kind of "seeing" at the time) and one of the officers asked me if we were heading home to "gangbang" her. As God as my witness, that's what he asked me. I ripped that guy a new butthole. We were promptly released and freed to go... no ticket for my buddy even though he was driving with no seatbelt and headlights.
 

Haman J.T.

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Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote
Ok, you explain where my guilt was and why Feigers office and one civil rights lawyer wouldn't take the case. 9/11/06 I was parked legaly on a residential street. While parked I consumed 1.5 pints of vodka for pain relief. No keys in ignition. Keys in ignition does not matter. If you have care, custody, and control of the vehicle, you can be considered DUI.
Thats BS. In People v. Wood, 450 Mich. 399:538 N.W.2nd 351 (1995), overuled the holding of both People v. Pomeroy (on rehearing) and People v. Fulcher (on rehearing) 419 Mich. 441: 335 N.W.2nd 98 (1984), as to the definition of operating a motor vehicle. Pursuant to Wood, " a person sleeping in a motionless car cannot be held to be presently operating a vehicle while sleeping." Wood, supra at 405. In Wood, the defendant was found passed out at a McDonalds drive thru with the vehicle in gear and the drivers foot on the brake. The Supreme Court now holds that: " operating" should be defined in terms of the danger the statute seeks to prevent:the collision of a vehicle being operated by a person under the influence of intoxicating liquor with other persons or property.Once a person using a motor vehicle as a motor vehicle has put the vehicle in motion,or in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision,such a person continues to operate it until the vehicle is returned to a position posing no risk. Wood supra at 404-405. HERE'S ANOTHER ONE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! In People v. Burton, 252 Mich.App. 130; 651 N.W.2nd 143(2002), the Court of Appeals applied the Wood standard and found that an intoxicated defendant[BAC of 0.17 or 0.18], behind the wheel with his seatbelt fastened, the engine of the vehicle running, the transmition in stationary position, either park or neutral, in a golf course parking lot, with two empty beer bottles in his truck was not "operating". The Burton Court concluded there was not enough evidence that the defendant intended to operate the vehicle within the meaning of Wood because there was no evidence the truck was in motion or that the truck was in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision. Burton supra at 144, 151. I RECOMEND YOU LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU GIVE OUT ANY INFORMATION BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOT WHAT YOU SPEAK OF UP ON YOUR SOAP BOX! I'm still waiting to hear how you got out of the felony you spoke of!
As for drinking 1.5 pints of Vodka for "pain relief" while sitting in your vehicle... that probably wouldn't sound kosher to a judge or jury. 1.5 pints is a lot to drink, as evidenced by you passing out and being transported to a hospital.

Passed out. Two hours later a woman called LEO's. LEO's unlocked car, put me in ambulance to the hospital. Woke up 8am in emergency room with open intoxicant ticket. Based on what you've written so far, I would say you'd have a real hard time fighting an open intoxicant ticket because it sounds like were drinking IN your vehicle... that's an obvious open intoxicant.
I was told by Feigers office that if I would have plead not guilty of the open intox too they would have been able to help me!!!!!!!!!
9/19/06 officers come to house,arrest me for drunk driving. As previously mentioned, you can be found guilty of DUI just by sitting in your vehicle... whether or not the keys are in the ignition. I'm not saying I agree with the law... but that's the way things are at this moment.
READ ABOVE SUPREME COURT DETERMINATION!!!
20 days later Judge adjourns until prosecutor can talk to the woman who called police in first place. Prosecutor probably wanted to hear what the woman had to say and whether or not she would cooperate with the prosecution in bringing other charges against you.
YEAH RIGHT!!!!!!!
Police write in their report the car was running, woman says the car was not running when she called or when they arrived. 20 days later all charges dropped except the open intoxicant( 2 empty bottles) ticket. Prosecutor might have dropped the DUI charges because the woman contridicted the officer's report. An attorney worth their salt would pounce all over that in court. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have pursued the charges... but they probably figured that no harm was done and they already had you on another charge anyway. You have no real defense to fight the open intoxicant but you did stand a chance to fight the DUI... it sounds like the prosecutor took the path of least resistance.
FEIGERS OFFICE SAID THEY HAD NO CASE ON OPEN INTOX!!!!
Feigers office said the fact I accepted the open intoxicant ticket would make it hard to convince a jury. Sounds about right. Once a jury hears that you passed out in your car after consuming so much alcohol... and that you basically admitted guilt by accepting the open intoxicant charge... it probably wouldn't be far fetched for them to believe that you were DUI.
WHERE"S THE PROOF!!!!!!
It didn't matter the main witness would testify the police report was an obvious lie to the Judge who provided the warrant because " police may have made a mistake in not knowing the difference between a running car or a car that is not running" . I'll agree that this sounds like a line of BS. But at the end of the day, you should be thankful that the officers DID screw up... it is very likely the only thing that saved you from being brought up on charges of DUI. Just sitting in your vehicle while drunk is enough to charge you. If the officer's hadn't lied in their report (saying the engine was running, a direct contradiction of the lady who called them), you probably would've been charged for that as well. This is an example where an inaccurate police report can cost the prosecution a "layup" conviction.
OFFICERS COMMITED A CRIME! LYING TO A JUDGE!!!!
Now what was your felony arrest? You can't remember? I do remember. I was arrested and charged with Interferring with Police. In a nutshell, officers responded to a call about someone I was with while on private property. The subject was an acquaintence of mine (at the time), but I had no involvement in whatever he was doing or trying to do. In fact, when police arrived on the scene, I was initially cooperative... I volunteered my ID and volunteered my new address (I had just moved that week) in case the officers needed to follow up with me later. My volunteering of this information resulted in a $100-something citation for "failure to change address on ID". This citation, combined with one of the officers berrating me with unprofessional language, caused me to decide that I was done talking to them. When I no longer wished to cooperate, I was ordered to leave the premises. However I was on private property, had business there, and the owner/operator of the premises hadn't asked me to leave. I explained this to the officer... he was unamused. He continued to berrate me and threatened to arrest me if I didn't leave the premises. More specifically, he told me to "Get the f**k back to my own city" because he said I wasn't welcome in HIS town. At this, I told the officer to either charge me with something or to leave me alone... and that I was not going anywhere until my business was done or the owner/operator asked me to leave. His response was to arrest me for "interferring with police". Needless to say, the charge didn't stick.
HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND IN JAIL AND WHAT WAS YOUR BOND FOR THIS FELONY? IF IN FACT IT WAS A FELONY?
This happened some years ago... it was one of my first highly negative LEO encounters and my very first arrest. Before this, I had minor issues here resulting in being detained... but I had never actually been arrested and charged with anything. After this incident, I was so disgusted that I sought to learn as much as I could about my responsibilities during an LEO encounter to avert situations like this again in the future. I get along with LEO's just fine... but every now and then, I run into a real ballbuster... one that seems to let their ego run in overdrive and who tries to talk/walk all over people. That doesn't fly with me. Most of the time, other officers end up getting involved and the incidents do not progress to anything more than "threat of arrest". Sometimes they result in detainment... sometimes arrest. Admittadly, shooting my mouth off back to officers who berrate me has been the source of some of these problems. But over the years, I've learned to pick my battles. These days, it takes a real special officer to coax me into firing off at the mouth. I believe the last time I did this was last summer when two officers pulled over my friend (I was riding passenger). We had a girl in the backseat (a girl I was kind of "seeing" at the time) and one of the officers asked me if we were heading home to "gangbang" her. As God as my witness, that's what he asked me. I ripped that guy a new butthole. We were promptly released and freed to go... no ticket for my buddy even though he was driving with no seatbelt and headlights.
So after the Detroit police illegaly searched you and violated your civil rights you let them go to teach em a lesson? What did you accomplish by letting them go so they can do it to another citizen? Talk is cheap!
 

Veritas

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hamaneggs wrote:
Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote
Thats BS. In People v. Wood, 450 Mich. 399:538 N.W.2nd 351 (1995), overuled the holding of both People v. Pomeroy (on rehearing) and People v. Fulcher (on rehearing) 419 Mich. 441: 335 N.W.2nd 98 (1984), as to the definition of operating a motor vehicle. Pursuant to Wood, " a person sleeping in a motionless car cannot be held to be presently operating a vehicle while sleeping." Wood, supra at 405. In Wood, the defendant was found passed out at a McDonalds drive thru with the vehicle in gear and the drivers foot on the brake. The Supreme Court now holds that: " operating" should be defined in terms of the danger the statute seeks to prevent:the collision of a vehicle being operated by a person under the influence of intoxicating liquor with other persons or property.Once a person using a motor vehicle as a motor vehicle has put the vehicle in motion,or in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision,such a person continues to operate it until the vehicle is returned to a position posing no risk. Wood supra at 404-405. HERE'S ANOTHER ONE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! In People v. Burton, 252 Mich.App. 130; 651 N.W.2nd 143(2002), the Court of Appeals applied the Wood standard and found that an intoxicated defendant[BAC of 0.17 or 0.18], behind the wheel with his seatbelt fastened, the engine of the vehicle running, the transmition in stationary position, either park or neutral, in a golf course parking lot, with two empty beer bottles in his truck was not "operating". The Burton Court concluded there was not enough evidence that the defendant intended to operate the vehicle within the meaning of Wood because there was no evidence the truck was in motion or that the truck was in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision. Burton supra at 144, 151. I'll take your word for it. I'll admit that I have not researched DUI law personally... my information cames from third party sources. Personally, I don't anticipate having to worry about defending myself in a matter like this since I don't drive while under the influence. Nor do I guzzle down 1.5 pints of Vodka while sitting in a parked car because I'm "in pain". lol

Give yourself a big hand... your expertise in drunk driving laws has finally paid off. And it only took 20 days in jail to motivate you into researching it. My hat is off to you, sir.

I RECOMEND YOU LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU GIVE OUT ANY INFORMATION BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOT WHAT YOU SPEAK OF UP ON YOUR SOAP BOX! I guess that's why you spent 20 days in jail and 40 days on a tether and I didn't. Let's be real honest with eachother for a moment: You know the law because you are researching it AFTER the fact. Had you been just a little more aware of your rights BEFORE the fact, you probably wouldn't have pled guilty to possessing an open intoxicant. So once again, my hat is off to you for learning what you should've known BEFORE you did something foolish. If I ever plan to drink myself into a stupor while sitting in my car at the side of the road, you can bet I'd research the law BEFORE I did it. But then again, I have more sense than to do something like that.

I'm still waiting to hear how you got out of the felony you spoke of! At this point, who cares what I did or how I did it? The fact is that my record is clean.

I was told by Feigers office that if I would have plead not guilty of the open intox too they would have been able to help me!!!!!!!!! Woulda coulda shoulda.


FEIGERS OFFICE SAID THEY HAD NO CASE ON OPEN INTOX!!!! Whatever Fiegers office says doesn't matter because you pled guilty to it.
So after the Detroit police illegaly searched you and violated your civil rights you let them go to teach em a lesson? What did you accomplish by letting them go so they can do it to another citizen? Talk is cheap! I followed the proper channels to file a fomal complaint that's currently being investigated. I don't know the outcome yet... but I can tell you that I am not seeking to have anyone terminated. What would you do? Spend $8,000 to sue them and get nothing out of it? You couldn't even keep yourself out of jail nor find an attorney to take your case... how would you ever muster the resources to find one to take a case in which no damages are likely to be awarded?

Nonetheless, it's my business how I choose to proceed with it. My primary goals have been attained... I've said that all along. While we're on the subject, what purpose did drinking 1.5 pints of Vodka while parked on the side of the road serve? What did YOU accomplish? You talking to me about accomplishments in this matter doesn't make any damn sense. It would seem to me that you did something foolish (for no useful purpose) and got smacked around as a result. When you get your big $1.5 million settlement (lol), let me know.
 

Haman J.T.

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Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote:
Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote
Thats BS. In People v. Wood, 450 Mich. 399:538 N.W.2nd 351 (1995), overuled the holding of both People v. Pomeroy (on rehearing) and People v. Fulcher (on rehearing) 419 Mich. 441: 335 N.W.2nd 98 (1984), as to the definition of operating a motor vehicle. Pursuant to Wood, " a person sleeping in a motionless car cannot be held to be presently operating a vehicle while sleeping." Wood, supra at 405. In Wood, the defendant was found passed out at a McDonalds drive thru with the vehicle in gear and the drivers foot on the brake. The Supreme Court now holds that: " operating" should be defined in terms of the danger the statute seeks to prevent:the collision of a vehicle being operated by a person under the influence of intoxicating liquor with other persons or property.Once a person using a motor vehicle as a motor vehicle has put the vehicle in motion,or in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision,such a person continues to operate it until the vehicle is returned to a position posing no risk. Wood supra at 404-405. HERE'S ANOTHER ONE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! In People v. Burton, 252 Mich.App. 130; 651 N.W.2nd 143(2002), the Court of Appeals applied the Wood standard and found that an intoxicated defendant[BAC of 0.17 or 0.18], behind the wheel with his seatbelt fastened, the engine of the vehicle running, the transmition in stationary position, either park or neutral, in a golf course parking lot, with two empty beer bottles in his truck was not "operating". The Burton Court concluded there was not enough evidence that the defendant intended to operate the vehicle within the meaning of Wood because there was no evidence the truck was in motion or that the truck was in a position posing a significant risk of causing a collision. Burton supra at 144, 151. I'll take your word for it. I'll admit that I have not researched DUI law personally... my information cames from third party sources. Personally, I don't anticipate having to worry about defending myself in a matter like this since I don't drive while under the influence. Nor do I guzzle down 1.5 pints of Vodka while sitting in a parked car because I'm "in pain". lol

Give yourself a big hand... your expertise in drunk driving laws has finally paid off. And it only took 20 days in jail to motivate you into researching it. My hat is off to you, sir.

I RECOMEND YOU LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU GIVE OUT ANY INFORMATION BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOT WHAT YOU SPEAK OF UP ON YOUR SOAP BOX! I guess that's why you spent 20 days in jail and 40 days on a tether and I didn't. Let's be real honest with eachother for a moment: You know the law because you are researching it AFTER the fact. Had you been just a little more aware of your rights BEFORE the fact, you probably wouldn't have pled guilty to possessing an open intoxicant. So once again, my hat is off to you for learning what you should've known BEFORE you did something foolish. If I ever plan to drink myself into a stupor while sitting in my car at the side of the road, you can bet I'd research the law BEFORE I did it. But then again, I have more sense than to do something like that.

I'm still waiting to hear how you got out of the felony you spoke of! At this point, who cares what I did or how I did it? The fact is that my record is clean.

I was told by Feigers office that if I would have plead not guilty of the open intox too they would have been able to help me!!!!!!!!! Woulda coulda shoulda.


FEIGERS OFFICE SAID THEY HAD NO CASE ON OPEN INTOX!!!! Whatever Fiegers office says doesn't matter because you pled guilty to it.
So after the Detroit police illegaly searched you and violated your civil rights you let them go to teach em a lesson? What did you accomplish by letting them go so they can do it to another citizen? Talk is cheap! I followed the proper channels to file a fomal complaint that's currently being investigated. I don't know the outcome yet... but I can tell you that I am not seeking to have anyone terminated. What would you do? Spend $8,000 to sue them and get nothing out of it? You couldn't even keep yourself out of jail nor find an attorney to take your case... how would you ever muster the resources to find one to take a case in which no damages are likely to be awarded?

Nonetheless, it's my business how I choose to proceed with it. My primary goals have been attained... I've said that all along. While we're on the subject, what purpose did drinking 1.5 pints of Vodka while parked on the side of the road serve? What did YOU accomplish? You talking to me about accomplishments in this matter doesn't make any damn sense. It would seem to me that you did something foolish (for no useful purpose) and got smacked around as a result. When you get your big $1.5 million settlement (lol), let me know.
Do you have proof that you accomplished anything with the secret memo you were shown. You stated it was circulated throughout the department.Where is your proof for that! It isn't a matter of what I drank 2 years ago. It's a matter of your claims and what are accomplished at the Detroit PD. I have made no such claims of accomplishments at the Detroit PD. Looking forward to the results! Of course your understanding of drunk driving law is lacking so take your own advice and learn the law!And civil rights law too!
 

Veritas

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hamaneggs wrote:
Do you have proof that you accomplished anything with the secret memo you were shown. You stated it was circulated throughout the department.Where is your proof for that! I'm done discussing this with you. It's obvious you simply want to argue.

It isn't a matter of what I drank 2 years ago. It's a matter of your claims and what are accomplished at the Detroit PD. I have made no such claims of accomplishments at the Detroit PD. The bottom line is this: If you doubt my claims, then quit flapping your jaws and contact the DPD to find out what their policy is on dealing with open carriers. Ask them when the new policy went into effect. If they disclose that information, you will find that it went into effect several days after I was picked up and cut loose in Detroit. If not, then that's fine too.
 

ghostrider

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Rob Washeleski wrote:
It is true there are many ways to deal with educating people on OC. It especially bothers me when someone insinuates that talking to the police while stopped for OC indicates that one is brain-dead, then adds that they personally do not OC. ..
As far as I know, I am the only one here who isn't interested in OC'ing. I may be wrong about that, but I hope you are not referring to me with the above quote, as I make no such insinuation.

It's easy to MMQB things (and that's a large part of this forum), but ultimately it's the person who is there who better understands the dynamics of the situation.
 

Veritas

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ghostrider wrote:
...but ultimately it's the person who is there who better understands the dynamics of the situation.
Well said. I don't want to speak for others, but this is the chief source of my qualms. I sort of bit my tongue as I was lambasted at first... but then when I saw it happening to others, it compelled me to make the aforementioned statement (first post of this thread).

I think people need to become familiar with the phrases "To each, his own" and "Different strokes for different folks." There is more than one way to skin a buck... some folks do it differently than others. In the end, I think many of us are working towards a common goal. Some of us just take different paths to get there.
 

ghostrider

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Veritas wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
...but ultimately it's the person who is there who better understands the dynamics of the situation.
Well said. I don't want to speak for others, but this is the chief source of my qualms. I sort of bit my tongue as I was lambasted at first... but then when I saw it happening to others, it compelled me to make the aforementioned statement (first post of this thread).

I think people need to become familiar with the phrases "To each, his own" and "Different strokes for different folks." There is more than one way to skin a buck... some folks do it differently than others. In the end, I think many of us are working towards a common goal. Some of us just take different paths to get there.

True.

It's a natural occurrence to MMQB things on boards like this (especially like this), and it should be expected. I learned early that, "when I post something on a forum that is read by people from all over, I have to expect whatever comments are going to be posted in response. If I don't want to hear criticism, then the best way to avoid it is to lurk."

If someone calls me an "idiot" for talking to the police, so be it. I have to make my choices and live with them, and if I'm so insecure at to be bothered by what a stranger on the internet says, then I might want to re-think posting things.
 

Veritas

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I hear you. Like I said... I bit my tongue when I first head these things. But then when I saw it happening to others, I saw a pattern and it didn't sit well with me. I believe MOC can do a lot... but with great potential power comes great responsibilities. I think folks need to focus more on the positive aspect of things. Again, these are just my opinions... but if it were up to me, I'd focus on LEO's and municipalities before I went on a citizen awareness campaign. Citizens must see that the LEO's are not going to give them a hard time, otherwise they will be afraid to exercize their rights.

During the Woodward litter cleanup, some of us had a brief discussion with a gentleman selling flowers at the side of the road. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that he supports OC, but wouldn't do it himself because he doesn't have the time to deal with issues if he were to be harrassed by LEO's. I'm sure MANY people feel this way.

If we're going to seek the support of LEO's, then I think we should take it a little easier on them. Sure, LEO's that egregiously violate their sworn duties should be dealt with... but as an overal LEO unit, I think we should embrace them, rather than chastize them at every turn. Once this in place, I can things getting easier for us all.

Again... everyone may have a different method... but this is the one that I prefer. I'm all for community events that establish a positive image for OC'ers... but I would probably shun the idea of "marches" and "rallies" that don't appear to have a true purpose behind them; other than to increase awareness of MOC, Inc. I don't want people to lose sight of the fact that OC belongs to the people... not to a website, an organization, or an incorporated business. If people have their own agenda's for doing something, then so be it... they should not be subjected to ill remarks because they failed to involve MOC, Inc. If there is a purpose to rally (such as to help someone in a legal matter), then I'm all for that. But if people are going to rally just for the sake of showing off (for lack of a better term), then I wouldn't participate. I appreciate having an open forum to mingle with people of similar interests... but I don't wantthe privilidge of using it to circumvent my personal objectives or ideals. If this becomes a problem, then I will reconsider my involvement with the group.

Again... these are just my personal opinions and views.
 

Haman J.T.

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Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote:
Do you have proof that you accomplished anything with the secret memo you were shown. You stated it was circulated throughout the department.Where is your proof for that! I'm done discussing this with you. It's obvious you simply want to argue.

It isn't a matter of what I drank 2 years ago. It's a matter of your claims and what are accomplished at the Detroit PD. I have made no such claims of accomplishments at the Detroit PD. The bottom line is this: If you doubt my claims, then quit flapping your jaws and contact the DPD to find out what their policy is on dealing with open carriers. Ask them when the new policy went into effect. If they disclose that information, you will find that it went into effect several days after I was picked up and cut loose in Detroit. If not, then that's fine too.
You already know their policy. Did they arrest you? No! If they had not been provided info by others on this site you may well have been arrested.You did make fun of those who did,and that was rude! That was not fine! This site is for info, not one upmanship and name calling!
 

Venator

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Veritas wrote:
During the Woodward litter cleanup, some of us had a brief discussion with a gentleman selling flowers at the side of the road. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that he supports OC, but wouldn't do it himself because he doesn't have the time to deal with issues if he were to be harrassed by LEO's. I'm sure MANY people feel this way.
Were you at the Woodward trash pick-up? I don't remember meeting you.
 

Veritas

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hamaneggs wrote:
You already know their policy. Did they arrest you? No! If they had not been provided info by others on this site you may well have been arrested.You did make fun of those who did,and that was rude! That was not fine! This site is for info, not one upmanship and name calling!
Your opinion is noted. However, I don't really care.

Edited to Add: One point that I will clarify, however, is that I haven't "made fun of" nor called anyone here names. My gripe is that people here have done it to others. I encourage you to go back and read my dissertation about it. If not, that;s your prerogative. But for real, I am not going to go back and forth with you about non-issues. It's evident you have a bone to pick with me about something... go pick it on your own. I'm done with you.
 

Veritas

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Venator wrote:
Were you at the Woodward trash pick-up? I don't remember meeting you.
Indeed. I kept a pretty low profile... didn't talk much. Just sort of showed up, said hello to a few people, then picked up trash. I also avoided the newspaper lady pretty intently. :p
 

Venator

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Veritas wrote:
Venator wrote:
Were you at the Woodward trash pick-up? I don't remember meeting you.
Indeed. I kept a pretty low profile... didn't talk much. Just sort of showed up, said hello to a few people, then picked up trash. I also avoided the newspaper lady pretty intently. :p
Too bad you don't introduce yourself to me. I would have loved to talk with you. We need all the help we can get and you have some great ideas. Don't be shy next time.
 

BB62

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hamaneggs wrote:
Ok, you explain where my guilt was and why Feigers office and one civil rights lawyer wouldn't take the case. 9/11/06 I was parked legaly on a residential street. While parked I consumed 1.5 pints of vodka for pain relief. No keys in ignition. Passed out...
Paragraphs are your friend.
 

Veritas

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Venator wrote:
Too bad you don't introduce yourself to me. I would have loved to talk with you. We need all the help we can get and you have some great ideas. Don't be shy next time.
Not so much a shy thing... more or less just "cautious". Because I say so much here under condition of anonymity, I try to limit the exposure of my true identity. It's not like I have a Batman-esque alter ego or anything (although that would be pretty cool), but I've learned that not everyone who smiles at you is a friend.

As time goes on, and I learn more about folks, it'll be less of an issue.
 

Haman J.T.

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Veritas wrote:
hamaneggs wrote:
You already know their policy. Did they arrest you? No! If they had not been provided info by others on this site you may well have been arrested.You did make fun of those who did,and that was rude! That was not fine! This site is for info, not one upmanship and name calling!
Your opinion is noted. However, I don't really care.

Edited to Add: One point that I will clarify, however, is that I haven't "made fun of" nor called anyone here names. My gripe is that people here have done it to others. I encourage you to go back and read my dissertation about it. If not, that;s your prerogative. But for real, I am not going to go back and forth with you about non-issues. It's evident you have a bone to pick with me about something... go pick it on your own. I'm done with you.
If you didn't care why worry if it was done to others.These were their opinions so there was no reason to bring up their fears of OCing or their opinions of how to handle LEO encounters. Being condicending is never helpfull and the mention of your qualms etc tipped your true feelings.Thus my input, because I do care for those who do not know they have a life preserving right to OC or CC.We are an extreme minority at this point due to the lying media and it's very hard to get the truth out to those who do not know their constitutional and legal rights. So belittleing those who fear LEO's goes against what we are trying to educate them about here! They only know what they've been told. Lets tell them the truth!
 

Veritas

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hamaneggs wrote:
If you didn't care why worry if it was done to others. Don't get confused. When I said "I don't care", I was referring to not caring about your opinion. I care about many things, but someone who is trolling for incoherent arguments with me is not one of those things.

These were their opinions so there was no reason to bring up their fears of OCing or their opinions of how to handle LEO encounters. I simply said that I believe people may not exersize some of their rights because they are afraid of harrassment or legal repurcussions, and that allaying these fears should be the first step in recalibrating minds. If you have a problem with this opinion, oh well... I won't lose sleep over it.

So belittleing those who fear LEO's goes against what we are trying to educate them about here! I have not belittled anyone's potential fears. I simply said that people shouldn't be afraid.
Listen dude... I'll admit that some of your posts allowed me to enjoy a few chuckles, but even my morbid curiousity for what you might have to say at this point is quickly dissipating. If you have something to add to this topic, I'm all ears. If you just want to continue to try to pick useless fights, I will not indulge you. You can have the last word if you wish... I don't care. But this is my final comment to you about this stupid crap.
 
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