There Is More Than One Approach

hamaneggs wrote:

If you didn't care why worry if it was done to others. Don't get confused. When I said "I don't care", I was referring to not caring about your opinion. I care about many things, but someone who is trolling for incoherent arguments with me is not one of those things.

These were their opinions so there was no reason to bring up their fears of OCing or their opinions of how to handle LEO encounters. I simply said that I believe people may not exersize some of their rights because they are afraid of harrassment or legal repurcussions, and that allaying these fears should be the first step in recalibrating minds. If you have a problem with this opinion, oh well... I won't lose sleep over it.

So belittleing those who fear LEO's goes against what we are trying to educate them about here! I have not belittled anyone's potential fears. I simply said that people shouldn't be afraid.

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Listen dude... I'll admit that some of your posts allowed me to enjoy a few chuckles, but even my morbid curiousity for what you might have to say at this point is quickly dissipating. If you have something to add to this topic, I'm all ears. If you just want to continue to try to pick useless fights, I will not indulge you. You can have the last word if you wish... I don't care. But this is my final comment to you about this stupid crap.

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But here is my opinion about what happened in Detroit. The reason I wouldn't have done that, is because trouble was expected, and trouble happened. To clear the air on this, I truly did not expect any trouble. I didn't expect anything would happen at all. But it did... and all is well now.

Why would we want foranyone to have his gun taken away, or his CPL? I don't think anyone is championing this.

WHY would we want any of this crap to transpire? The purpose was to gauge the "real world" response of officers and to inform/correct any unlawful behavior, should it occur. Nothing else up until this point seemed to motivate the DPD into taking action to properly educate their officers... so it is my sincere belief that this event needed to happen.

I want to be able to walk where I please while OCing if I choose... including Detroit. Can you imagine what would've happened had I been stopped at night, in an obscure part of town, with no witnesses? I did my best to create a real world scenario (one man walking with an openly carried pistol... just like I ordinarily do), but still maintaining an element of control (doing it in broad daylight in front of multiple law enforcement agencies).

Now that it's done and DPD's policy has been changed, I feel good about being able to walk in Detroit while openly carrying without being harrassed. I would not have felt good about that prior to this event.

I also feel that at times, this means going out of our way to be cautious and OC in large groups so that the police who we believe may hassle us are too scared of the large crowd full of witnesses and recordersto do it. This is where I vehemently disagree. What is the purpose of having rights if people are afraid to exercise them alone? Why bother OC'ing if you have to do it in the company of others? I don't want the police to fear me... and I likewise do not want to fear them. I just want to be able to go about my own business, exercizing rights as I choose, and not be hassled for it.

I do not blame those of you who went for what happened, because those who were there did nothing legally wrong, and you weren't officially representing MOC, so it was merely you guys doing what you felt like, and it had no real bearing on OCers as a whole. I have an issue with this...

I'm not real hip on the idea that MOC, Inc is representative of OC'ers. Open carry is a right that belongs to the PEOPLE... no incorporated business should lay claim to representing this right or the people who choose to exercize it. I was open carrying before I knew that MOC ever existed... so I'll admit that it bothers me when someone suggests that MOC represents open carriers. It doesn't. MOC, Inc provides a FORUM for like-minded people to converge... it does not determine OC protocol. This is precisely what ticked me off when I was cussed out for not "organizing" with MOC, Inc before taking my walk down Beaubien in Detroit. In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell? Since when do I have to seek approval and/or organize with a business entity in order to exercize a right?"

I do not represent MOC, Inc. And MOC, Inc does not represent me. The only representative(s) of MOC, Inc is/are the registered owner(s) of the business itself. MOC, Inc provides a media for sharing ideas, opinions, and logic. It does not determine, nor shape, how I choose to exercise my rights. I sincerely hope this is the same for others here as well.

Again, just my opinion, no offense intended to anyone. I appreciate your thoughts. And please don't take offense to mine.

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I wouldn't have done it because I have little ones. Do I think Veritas was wrong, no. Do I think it might have been a bit unwise, yes, at least for me. Seemingly unwise... perhaps. But like I said, I did it in a controlled environment in order to make it safe to do in an uncontrolled environment later. I think that's pretty wise.

Also, I believe several times he stated that he genuinely didn't expect any trouble, a bit naive, maybe, honest, I think so. This is true. I honestly did not expect anyone to stop me. As far as I was concerned, the original (off duty) officer who challenged me probably dismissed me the second our conversation was over. I don't think he thought for a minute that I would follow through. Even so, I was confident in my knowledge of the law, and "assumed" that any officer who might've approached me would have at least asked me a few questions and maybe sought the advice/instruction of a supervisor before attempting to detain or arrest me. I'll accept the charge of naivety for having faith in this. Nonetheless, things worked out in the end. If there was one thing that I was absolutely sure of, it was that even if I were arrested, that I would've been released post-haste with no charges filed. This is, essentially, what happened.

I believe that the general rule of thumb that is recommended here on the site is the right way to go about doing things, back ups and back ups on the back ups. Safety in numbers blah blah blah. Unless you find yourself in the same position as Veritas(not putting you on a pedestal here bub) where you are confident in your knowledge of the law and your ability to use it properly, and you have the time and money(or mad court skillz), or big huevos to do something like this by yourself, then go for it. Again, I'm a little girl(not meant to insinuate anyone else is, just me ladies) to some extent, so I won't be for awhile. I respect the fact that some people feel safer in numbers. I will not insult anyone for choosing that path. But in the same token, I don't expect me (or anyone else) to be insulted for choosing a path that's different. That's the entire point of this thread.

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Ghostrider:

No, I am not talking about you. I am talking about people in my area who claim to be all about civil rights and 2A, except when it comes to OC. Wash, rinse, and repeat is a great thread, and I learned a bunch from it. My wording was poor, since it made it sound like it happened on the forum. However, I try not to MMQB since I have been harassed and know that when the adrenaline starts flowing and people get in your face it can be very disorienting. The first time I was stopped I was dumb founded for a few seconds when the cops just asked, "What are you doing?" Roleplaying is great practice, but it is definitely tougher in real-life under stress.

Getting way back to the origianl post, I agree that we need to become mainstream through cultural change and asserting our freedoms, not lawsuits. If I am arrested and prosecuted for no reason, I would consider a lawsuit. For a detainment and questioning, I think it is overboard.

-Rob

P.S. I use my real name and several of you have met me before. I do not hide behind a "handle" and sling mud, and if I had a problem with you Ghostrider, I would PM you like a man.

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That's cool Rob, and I appreciate you clarifying things. One of my concerns when posting about these things is that I not come off as a hypocrite, which is why, while I do applaud those who OC, I do not encourage people to do so.

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ghostrider wrote:

That's cool Rob, and I appreciate you clarifying things. One of my concerns when posting about these things is that I not come off as a hypocrite, which is why, while I do applaud those who OC, I do not encourage people to do so.

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Ironically, after my meeting with the OCI, I'm finding myself not OC'ing as often as I was previously.  I took heed in what "Good Cop" had to say about potential advantages and disadvantages.  This being said, it's still something that I do... but I'm finding myself wearing unbuttoned shirts over t-shirts more often in order to slightly conceal my firearm when travelling to some places.  What it comes down to, for me, is that I am comfortable with carrying on my strong side and I absolutely HATE IWB holsters.  My pistol being visible or concealed is not nearly as important as my ability to access it according to the muscle memory that I've developed.  I guess you can say that I'm sort of a hybrid.  A shirt may cover the view of my pistol from behind or from the side... but not from the front.  I'm beginning to adopt this method in favor of full visibility.  If someone is looking at my pistol, I like the idea of knowing that they are standing in front of me so that I can see them.

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I guess "good cop" got what he wanted out of it, eh?

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SQLtables wrote:

I guess "good cop" got what he wanted out of it, eh?

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I don't think converting me was his agenda. Remember, I went to his office... he didn't come to mine.

He's been an LEO for more than 20 years and comes from a family of LEO's. He is pro-gun and was clear to assert that he believes in my right to openly carry... he just said that it's something he wouldn't do himself (even if the department allowed him to when he was off duty), nor would he recommend his wife or children do it. Naturally, with his level of experience and conviction, his opinions about methods of carrying are going to mean something to me. Whether I choose to follow the advice or not depends on my level of experience and convction, however. He owns me in the experience department... I can say we're probably on par with eachother as far as conviction is concerned.

I firmly believe that if openly carrying were such a potential detriment to ones safety, that uniformed officers would conceal. I also believe that drawing an openly carried pistol is faster, and safer, than drawing one that's concealed. But I will also concede, based on a recent experience (combined with knowledge gained from Good Cop), that there are some situations in which the tactical advantages are diminished when openly carrying.

I'll tell you what really stuck this idea in my head: I had business in Detroit recently. I inadvertantly parked in the wrong area and had to make a farther walk than I anticipated. To save time, I cut through some alleys and parking lots. As I exited one alley and entered a parking lot, two men (appearing to be homeless) started following me. They were seeking money... I ignored them and kept walking. As we exited the parking lot, they followed me to the street corner while I waited for the light to change. One of them noticed my pistol and asked if I was a cop (I was open carrying). I didn't answer. As the signal changed, they followed me across the street... at which point we seperated when I turned left and they continued walking straight. The thing that I remember most about these two men is that they walked on either side of me... just far enough behind me so that my periphial vision couldn't pick them up. If they really wanted to, they could've come up on me from behind... two against one. No doubt their first order of business would be to secure my firearm. Now I'm not saying these men had any intention of doing anything. I'm just saying that the opportunity definitely existed. This isn't to say that they couldn't have done the same thing if I were carrying concealed... but if I were concealing, at least they wouldn't have the drop on trying to wrestle my gun from me from behind. I do carry a level 2 SEPRA holster with magazine disconnect safety... but two on one from behind might not guarantee these safety devices.

I thought about the whole thing later and remembered a story that Good Cop told me about a time, early in his career, when he and his partner were wrestling with a man. One man had the nerve to fight and wrestle against two uniformed officers. What would've happened if it were two perps versus one officer? Or in my case, two of them versus one of me? In certain areas, crime can be so bad that people might actually TRY to disarm a uniformed officer that is travelling alone... this is why cops sometimes don't travel to certain areas unless the've got backup with them.

So I began putting more thought into the "hybrid carry" system. If I'm going to be out most of the day and not sure where my travels will take me, I may opt to wear a button up shirt to fully conceal if I think the enviornment calls for it. The problem is that this creates a visible bulge on my hip which I think scares people more than seeing the gun itself. So if I'm indoors, or in anotherwise low-wind enviornment, I'll unbutton my shirt to reduce the visible bulge; while still concealing the pistol from behind and on the side. If I'm an area where I feel like I don't have to worry so much about people coming up on me from behind... I may opt for a fully open carry. I truly believe that people fear the uncertain... if they see a bulge in your shirt or the grip of a pistol sticking out of your pants, I can see them getting more freaked out than if you were just to let it all hang out in an open carry holster. Afterall, what sort of idiot criminal would open carry and draw attention to himself? He's more likely to try to hide a gun in his waistband or under a shirt, right? Most of the people that see an open firearm probably just assume your a LEO anyway. So in areas that I think are relatively safe, and where I only have the ability to partially conceal (because of my clothing), I will probably choose to openly carry.

Different enviornments call for different tactical solutions. I would venture to guess that MOST enviornments are safe enough for open carry... but I have conceded that there are some enviornments where you may not want to. At least I don't.

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I'll tell you what really stuck this idea in my head: I had business in Detroit recently. I inadvertantly parked in the wrong area and had to make a farther walk than I anticipated. To save time, I cut through some alleys and parking lots. As I exited one alley and entered a parking lot, two men (appearing to be homeless) started following me. They were seeking money... I ignored them and kept walking. As we exited the parking lot, they followed me to the street corner while I waited for the light to change. One of them noticed my pistol and asked if I was a cop (I was open carrying). I didn't answer. As the signal changed, they followed me across the street... at which point we seperated when I turned left and they continued walking straight. The thing that I remember most about these two men is that they walked on either side of me... just far enough behind me so that my periphial vision couldn't pick them up. If they really wanted to, they could've come up on me from behind... two against one. No doubt their first order of business would be to secure my firearm. Now I'm not saying these men had any intention of doing anything. I'm just saying that the opportunity definitely existed. This isn't to say that they couldn't have done the same thing if I were carrying concealed... but if I were concealing, at least they wouldn't have the drop on trying to wrestle my gun from me from behind. I do carry a level 2 SEPRA holster with magazine disconnect safety... but two on one from behind might not guarantee these safety devices.

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Hybrid Carry I like how that sounds and that is what I have been doing , Without a name.

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