Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Discrimination??

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    West Coast, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    I was OC'ing in a large business in Wisconsin and the store mngr asked me to leave and disarm b4 returning to the store. They have no sign posted at the door and judged me solely on my appearance. I talked to her respectfully and complied but also gave her info on Wisconsin gun rights. Is this not discrimination?



    edit......Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a lawsuit. I'm just looking into different ways to respond to future situations like this and if I can use that argument in the future. Do I legally have to comply?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Taco-Ma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    Many businesses are on private property, so the owner can ask you to leave for any reason.
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    Did it invlove race, color, religion, sex, national origin or disability? If not then there was no illegal discrimination.

    If they asked you to leave and you refused then you were trespassing and could be arrested. They are within their rights to "discriminate" because of guns.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    West Coast, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    I was thinking the same way but being a little ignorant on this issue I wanted to ask. Thanks

  5. #5
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949

    Post imported post

    Woodchuck wrote:
    I was OC'ing in a large business in Wisconsin and the store mngr asked me to leave and disarm b4 returning to the store. They have no sign posted at the door and judged me solely on my appearance. I talked to her respectfully and complied but also gave her info on Wisconsin gun rights. Is this not discrimination?



    edit......Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a lawsuit. I'm just looking into different ways to respond to future situations like this and if I can use that argument in the future. Do I legally have to comply?
    I agree with PT111. Yes, it IS discrimination, but gun owners are not a protected class of people. Discrimination itself is not illegal, only certain kinds are. The question is, who should have rights over the other, the land occupant, or the gun owner? I would side with the land occupant, because property rights are an absolute necessity in any free society (not for a second do I think we live in one now).

    Off topic: I call her a land occupant, because there isn't anyone in the U.S. that has Allodial Title to their land, which means they are the "absolute" owner. We still have the Feudal system of land ownership in the U.S., which from my understanding came from our use of Common Law from England. The King is the absolute owner, and holds Allodial Title to all land. Somehow, this translates to the state having absolute title, since we by law must pay taxes to the state (the King), just like in Feudal times.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

  6. #6
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Elgin, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,202

    Post imported post

    And we also have the right to discriminate against those businesses that discriminate against us. So, what business is it?



  7. #7
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    Statesman wrote:
    Woodchuck wrote:
    I was OC'ing in a large business in Wisconsin and the store mngr asked me to leave and disarm b4 returning to the store. They have no sign posted at the door and judged me solely on my appearance. I talked to her respectfully and complied but also gave her info on Wisconsin gun rights. Is this not discrimination?



    edit......Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a lawsuit. I'm just looking into different ways to respond to future situations like this and if I can use that argument in the future. Do I legally have to comply?
    I agree with PT111. Yes, it IS discrimination, but gun owners are not a protected class of people. Discrimination itself is not illegal, only certain kinds are. The question is, who should have rights over the other, the land occupant, or the gun owner? I would side with the land occupant, because property rights are an absolute necessity in any free society (not for a second do I think we live in one now).

    Off topic: I call her a land occupant, because there isn't anyone in the U.S. that has Allodial Title to their land, which means they are the "absolute" owner. We still have the Feudal system of land ownership in the U.S., which from my understanding came from our use of Common Law from England. The King is the absolute owner, and holds Allodial Title to all land. Somehow, this translates to the state having absolute title, since we by law must pay taxes to the state (the King), just like in Feudal times.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title
    This is a primary reason why we are in such a mess in this country. Whenever you designate a "group" of people as recipients of favored treatment, you not only have a Constitutional violation, but dire problems as well. This is why affirmative action and all of its agents is such a racist program. We can thank Johnson for Executive Orders 11246 and 11375 for getting us into this mess.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    Statesman wrote:
    Woodchuck wrote:
    I was OC'ing in a large business in Wisconsin and the store mngr asked me to leave and disarm b4 returning to the store. They have no sign posted at the door and judged me solely on my appearance. I talked to her respectfully and complied but also gave her info on Wisconsin gun rights. Is this not discrimination?



    edit......Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a lawsuit. I'm just looking into different ways to respond to future situations like this and if I can use that argument in the future. Do I legally have to comply?
    I agree with PT111. Yes, it IS discrimination, but gun owners are not a protected class of people. Discrimination itself is not illegal, only certain kinds are. The question is, who should have rights over the other, the land occupant, or the gun owner? I would side with the land occupant, because property rights are an absolute necessity in any free society (not for a second do I think we live in one now).

    Off topic: I call her a land occupant, because there isn't anyone in the U.S. that has Allodial Title to their land, which means they are the "absolute" owner. We still have the Feudal system of land ownership in the U.S., which from my understanding came from our use of Common Law from England. The King is the absolute owner, and holds Allodial Title to all land. Somehow, this translates to the state having absolute title, since we by law must pay taxes to the state (the King), just like in Feudal times.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title
    I can think of one person who holds allodial title to their real property. Michael Badnarik. He also holds statements of origin for his vehicles which makes them wholly belonging to him and not the state.

    I highly recommend watching his 7 one-hour videos on the web when you have the time.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    398

    Post imported post

    It would only be discrimination if you were a member of a protected class AND they let others of a different version of that class open carry.

    For instance, if you are black and they ask you to disarm while they ignore white people that are OC'ing... Then you would have a case.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Walton County, Georgia, ,
    Posts
    475

    Post imported post

    I know this is going off on a tangent but I've always taken issue with the idea that it's illegal for a business owner to discriminate against someone.

    Why is it illegal to discriminate based on race, gender, etc? If it's private property shouldn't it be a private matter and not in the domain of the law? Shouldn't a business owner have the right to decide who he/she wants to do business with based upon any criteria he/she sets forth?

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    N00blet45 wrote:
    I know this is going off on a tangent but I've always taken issue with the idea that it's illegal for a business owner to discriminate against someone.

    Why is it illegal to discriminate based on race, gender, etc? If it's private property shouldn't it be a private matter and not in the domain of the law? Shouldn't a business owner have the right to decide who he/she wants to do business with based upon any criteria he/she sets forth?
    Better yet is why all these discrimination laws apply differently to certain states? Under that same act some states have to get permission to change school or voting zones but others do not. Only be pure coincidence those states that have to get permssion to change anything happen to be the same states of the Confederacy.

    Your question is right on but no one seems to have an answer.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Cary, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    66

    Post imported post

    Were other people open carrying in this establishment and were you unfairly targeted from a population of openly carrying individuals? That would be discrimination. If you are a sole person carrying and someone asked you to leave/disarm, then that's their right as a business owner. If there was no other open carrying individuals then this incident doesn't even come close to discrimination.

    So, what you are asking for is an argument to use the next time this occurs to effectively persuade a business owner who has an obvious fear and ignorance of firearms to allow you to walk about their store carrying? Well, if someone could do that, there wouldn't be anyone opposing the Second Amendment ever again in this country. There will always be people who are ignorant and fearful of firearms.

    Whats the best way to deal with a manager like this? Courteously comply with their rights as a private property owner/agent and leave the premises. As soon as you become argumentative and non-compliant with their wishes, then you suddenly become an armed aggressor and a trespasser. Look at it from their point of view. They are already fearful of someone with a firearm, now that person is being argumentative and not complying with their decision. Kind of changes the picture both visually and legally.

    Plain and simple, being a responsible gun owner means knowing when and where you can carry and knowing when and where you can't carry. If you don't like the business' policy, then find a way to fight it in court. Trying to persuade a store manager in a confrontation over carrying a firearm while you are carrying is not legally compliant and it is not effective.


  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Mesa Az., , USA
    Posts
    174

    Post imported post

    Better yet is why all these discrimination laws apply differently to certain states? Under that same act some states have to get permission to change school or voting zones but others do not. Only be pure coincidence those states that have to get permission to change anything happen to be the same states of the Confederacy.

    Your question is right on but no one seems to have an answer

    Let me say we as people still have inbreed discriminations to some degree.
    It will be nice if the world accept a person for who they are rather what they look like but as a civilization that has not happened yet. Now it goes by
    If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck you must be a duck.
    I hope this helps a bit, in time we will evolve I hope.
    S/F. Vic

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Provo, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,076

    Post imported post

    While I agree that we must have respect for others and their property. I also believe that James D. "Mitch" Vilos is right when he says that "Life and Liberty Interests have Priority over a Property Interests" (See Utah Gun Law, 3rd Edition, pp 337-8).

    He goes on to say, "The right associated with carrying a gun is not intended to preserve the gun, it's intended to preserve life and liberty. A close examination of our system of laws reveals that life and liberty interests easily outweigh property interests. This is because without life, one cannot have liberty. Without liberty, one cannot own property. Hence, when these rights are mentioned together, such as in Utah's Constitution, "life" comes before "Liberty" which in turn, precedes "property." ... The priority of life and liberty over property permeates the U.S. justice system."

    And yes, he IS a lawyer.

    What order are rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence? Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •