Long arms OC

zigziggityzoo · May 20, 2009

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There have been some questions regarding the legality of OCing a long arm, such as an AR-15 or 12-gauge shotgun.

I decided to look through the maze that is the Michigan Compiled Law and come up with some answers to the question: Can I openly carry my loaded Rifle or Shotgun?

Answer: yes. Here's the law:

324.43511 Deer or elk season; transporting or possessing shotgun or rifle; license required; exception.
Sec. 43511.

(1) Subject to subsection (2), and except as provided in section 43513, during the open season for the taking of deer or elk with a firearm, a person shall not transport or possess a shotgun with buckshot, slug load, ball load, or cut shell or a rifle other than a .22 caliber rim fire, unless the person has in his or her possession a license to hunt deer or elk with a firearm.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply during muzzle-loading deer season.

and

324.43510 Carrying or transporting firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow or trap; license required; exception; applicability to taking of wild animal.
Sec. 43510.

(1) Subject to subsection (2) and except as provided in section 43513, a person shall not carry or transport a firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow, or a trap while in any area frequented by wild animals unless that person has in his or her possession a license as required under this part.

(2) This act or a rule promulgated or order issued by the department or the commission under this act shall not be construed to prohibit a person from transporting a pistol or carrying a loaded pistol, whether concealed or not, if either of the following applies:

(a) The person has in his or her possession a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435.

(b) The person is authorized under the circumstances to carry a concealed pistol without obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, as provided for under any of the following:

(i) Section 12a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.432a.

(ii) Section 227, 227a, 231, or 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.227, 750.227a, 750.231, and 750.231a.

(3) Subsection (2) does not authorize an individual to take or attempt to take a wild animal except as provided by law.

24.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting license not required; carrying or possessing unloaded weapon.
Sec. 43513.

(1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

A person may carry, transport, or possess a slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow without a hunting license if the slingshot, bow, or crossbow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

(2) Regardless of whether the person has a license or it is open season for the taking of game, a person may carry, transport, possess or discharge a firearm, a bow and arrow, or a crossbow if all of the following apply:

(a) The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in 1 or more of the following activities:

(i) Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets.

(ii) Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap.

(iii) Sighting-in the firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.

(b) The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of, either of the following:

(i) The owner of the property on which the activity under subdivision (a) is taking place.

(ii) The lessee of that property for a term of not less than 1 year.

(c) The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the activity under subdivision (a).

(3) A person may carry or possess an unloaded weapon at any time if the person is traveling to or from or participating in a historical reenactment.

The first clearly only applies during deer season, and only to non-.22LR rifles and shotguns with buck/slug/ball loads. Any other long arm is fine. Any other time of the year is also fine.

The second only applies in a place that is frequented by wildlife. You must comply with this one unless you're carrying in a way that complies with the Third.

The third requires that your gun be taken down, OR that you be going to or from a reenactment, OR that you be engaging in target practice, sighting in, etc.

What the law boils down to is this:

- Outside of Deer Season, in areas that aren't frequented by wildlife, you may OC your long arm legally.
- During Deer Season, you need a deer hunting license.
- In areas that are frequented by wildlife, you need any hunting license, or need to be performing target practice.

Michigander · May 20, 2009

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I think the real problem is a possible brandishing charge, since the AG opinion only covers handguns in holsters, and the exemptions in the brandishing law don't exempt self defense carry.

If it's slung or in a scabbard, I can't see losing a legal battle on it, but it's not hard to imagine a prosecutor trying to pop us with it. Which as I've said before is why we should approach long gun OC very carefully, and preferably the first few timeswe shouldrun it by the local police before hand so they won't flip out. :?

RubberArm · May 20, 2009

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I notice that 324.43513 does not state, "or for any lawful purpose."

So, during deer season, elk season, turkey season, small game season, etc., one cannot OC a loaded long gun (other than a .22 rim fire) anywhere wildlife frequent unless target shooting or on private property with the owners consent or re-enacting an historic event?

Do I understand this correctly?

"Wild animal" is defined by 324.43508 Section (4) as: a mammal, bird, fish, reptile, amphibian, or crustacea of a wild nature indigenous to this state or introduced to this state by the department or a species determined by the department to be of public benefit.

Are chickadees "wildlife"?

So just where in the state of Michigan would be somewhere where wildlife does not frequent? Downtown Detroit?

When is there no hunting season open?

Michigander · May 20, 2009

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Something to keep in mind is that if you have a rifle or shotgunwith a folding stock that collapses down to below 30" but has an over all length of at least 26", Michigan law considers it a pistol. That idiotic factcan be used to the advantage of gun owners if desired, because it can potentially bypass a lot of other stupid laws.

maahes · May 20, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

Something to keep in mind is that if you have a rifle or shotgunwith a folding stock that collapses down to below 30" but has an over all length of at least 26", Michigan law considers it a pistol. That idiotic factcan be used to the advantage of gun owners if desired, because it can potentially bypass a lot of other stupid laws.

I asked this when I had to get a pistol purchase permit for my AR:
"so with a CPL and this AR that is registered as a pistol, I could legally carry it loaded on the seat next to me while driving on public roads?" the lady behind the counter said she was just a clerk and couldn't answer. but Ive always wondered...

This would also cover shotguns with pistol grips.

Michigander · May 20, 2009

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If it's registered as a pistol, and it meets the Michigan definition of a pistol as it is currently configured, and if you have a CPl, then yes, you may carry it in your car as you wouldcarry any other firearm Michigan considers a handgun.

I'm guessing you have aminimum lengthbarrel and a T6 on it?

maahes · May 20, 2009

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14.5" barrel with the T6. I switched the T6 out for a Magpul UBR about 10 months before i sold it for 5x what I originally paid for the rifle and the upgrades.

Michigander · May 20, 2009

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So it's a SBR? Do you have a FFL?

T Vance · May 20, 2009

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RubberArm wrote:

I notice that 324.43513 does not state, "or for any lawful purpose."

So, during deer season, elk season, turkey season, small game season, etc., one cannot OC a loaded long gun (other than a .22 rim fire) anywhere wildlife frequent unless target shooting or on private property with the owners consent or re-enacting an historic event?

Do I understand this correctly?

"Wild animal" is defined by 324.43508 Section (4) as: a mammal, bird, fish, reptile, amphibian, or crustacea of a wild nature indigenous to this state or introduced to this state by the department or a species determined by the department to be of public benefit.

Are chickadees "wildlife"?

So just where in the state of Michigan would be somewhere where wildlife does not frequent? Downtown Detroit?

When is there no hunting season open?

Tecnically with a small game license you can hunt varmint ALL YEAR LONG. So there is always some kind of a hunting season.

RubberArm · May 24, 2009

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T Vance wrote:

Tecnically with a small game license you can hunt varmint ALL YEAR LONG. So there is always some kind of a hunting season.

So it follows then, that unless one has a small game license, it is not legal to OC a rifle or shotgun loaded nearly anywhere in the state. Would that be correct?

conservative85 · May 24, 2009

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So you cant carry a long gun, and you have to have permission to buy, own, and OC!

So what are you going to do?

Sit & mope? Post onthis site how your rights are being stompped on?

Or are you going to change the situation? :celebrate

RubberArm · May 25, 2009

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conservative85 wrote:

So you cant carry a long gun, and you have to have permission to buy, own, and OC!

So what are you going to do?

Sit & mope? Post onthis site how your rights are being stompped on?

Or are you going to change the situation? :celebrate

I came to this board and noticed that nearly everyone accepted the way it is. Even now, in post after post, everyone here keeps stating they have the "right" to OC a handgun. But they don't. I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room in the hopes that more people will realize they do not truly have said "right." Awareness is the first step.

FatboyCykes · May 25, 2009

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Also, time and time again, we've all acknowledged that what you've said now for the umpteenth time is true. None of us like it but most of us have accepted it, because the alternative just isn't acceptable for us. I'm beginning to think this is simply some kind of self esteem booster for you, that you're somehow more patriotic or something than those of us who have chosen to purchase a handgun or a CC permit. I'm not sure where you expect this to go, but by all means, keep regurgitating the same thing and expecting a different response.

mikestilly · Dec 4, 2009

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Warren code is pretty explicit .. I stumbled upon this today.

Sec. 22-167. Carrying firearm over 30 inches.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm commonly referred to as a longarm (rifle, shotgun or firearm over thirty (30) inches overall length) on the public streets, alleys, public shopping centers or places of business, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place within the city, whether cased or uncased, except under the provisions of this section.
(b) Unloaded longarms may be transported from a place of purchase to the residence of the purchaser if enclosed in a carton, container, closed gun case, or wrapped completely in commercial wrapping paper securely closed by tape or string, while being so transported.
(c) Unloaded longarms may be transported by motor vehicle to and from hunting and firearms practice or target shooting, but must be fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case or carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Unloaded longarms may be carried by persons seventeen (17) years and older, on foot, to and from a regulated gun range, when the firearm is fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case. Persons so involved shall proceed to and from the gun range without delay by avoiding loitering on the public streets and all other public places within the city.
(Code 1967, § 8-209(8))

TheRabbitsHole · Dec 4, 2009

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Wouldn't that city code be illegal based on the Firearms Preemptive Law?

springerdave · Dec 4, 2009

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RubberArm wrote:

conservative85 wrote:

So you cant carry a long gun, and you have to have permission to buy, own, and OC!

So what are you going to do?

Sit & mope? Post onthis site how your rights are being stompped on?

Or are you going to change the situation? :celebrate

Click to expand...

I came to this board and noticed that nearly everyone accepted the way it is. Even now, in post after post, everyone here keeps stating they have the "right" to OC a handgun. But they don't. I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room in the hopes that more people will realize they do not truly have said "right." Awareness is the first step.

please site the law that prohibits this right.springerdave.

zigziggityzoo · Dec 4, 2009

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springerdave wrote:

RubberArm wrote:

conservative85 wrote:

So you cant carry a long gun, and you have to have permission to buy, own, and OC!

So what are you going to do?

Sit & mope? Post onthis site how your rights are being stompped on?

Or are you going to change the situation? :celebrate

Click to expand...

I came to this board and noticed that nearly everyone accepted the way it is. Even now, in post after post, everyone here keeps stating they have the "right" to OC a handgun. But they don't. I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room in the hopes that more people will realize they do not truly have said "right." Awareness is the first step.

Click to expand...

please site the law that prohibits this right.springerdave.

28.422 the permit to purchase, carry, transport, possess a pistol.

If you need a permit to carry/possess, then it's not truly a right.

springerdave · Dec 4, 2009

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The Bill Of Rights makes 28.422 unconstitutional.springerdave.

zigziggityzoo · Dec 4, 2009

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springerdave wrote:

The Bill Of Rights makes 28.422 unconstitutional.springerdave.

We'll see what the Supreme Court says about that.

What's more certain is that the Michigan Constitution Article I Section VI makes it unconstitutional - certainly in my opinion.

springerdave · Dec 4, 2009

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:exclaim: ZZZ.springerdave.

Long arms OC

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