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Thread: Legal question regarding personal vehicle

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    My employer has added a new policy regarding weapons on the premises. They want me to sign a form giving them permission to search my personal vehicle any time they want to, it was attached to a form stating no weapons are allowed on company premises. However if I have my weapon in MY car properly stored why do I need to give them permission to search my car?

    It doesn't sound like they have the right to do this, and I don't intend on giving up my rights in this issue. Any lawyers have an answer?


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    I'm almost postive they CAN if you signthat form.

    Is there someplace nearby you can park off premises? Then they can't.

    But yeah, if they ask for permissionand you are on premises, you are giving up your rights. I still think they need a reason, but that's pretty easy to come by "so and so said he had a gun in his car"

    I think your options are sign it and don't keep a gun in your car,

    Quit

    Discuss withthe powers that be, your concerns with the policy.

    If that doesn't work,I wouldn't quit on principle. Finda good/better job FIRST and THEN quit on principle.

    When they start losing good employees because of a draconian policy, they'll change it.

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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    My employer has added a new policy regarding weapons on the premises. They want me to sign a form giving them permission to search my personal vehicle any time they want to, it was attached to a form stating no weapons are allowed on company premises. However if I have my weapon in MY car properly stored why do I need to give them permission to search my car?

    It doesn't sound like they have the right to do this, and I don't intend on giving up my rights in this issue. Any lawyers have an answer?

    I would not sign any form giving them consentto search my personal property with no probable cause. What will happen if you refuse to sign the form? Have theythreatened to terminate you for refusal to sign?

    I would make a call to an attorney that specializes in employee rights to see what they have to say about the deal.
    If I remember correctly, personal lockers at a place of employment cannot be searched without consent or probable cause, and those lockers belong to the company. So how can they expect to search someone personal mode of transportation without probable cause?

    Are you in a position where you could rally against this tactic and get everyone employed there to refuse to sign the consent form?
    Rights are Rights, If the federal government is not supposed to violate your rights, how can an employer expect to be able to violate them or get consent for them to viloate them?



    Hmm, I found a thread right n OCDO with this same exact topic, here>> http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=399953



    See if that answers any questions for you.


    EDIT: an employer cannot search your vehicle without permission, That is why they are trying to get your permission! if you refuse, expect some backlash, but they have no legal right to search a private vehicle. They could call the police who would then need probable cause to search and again they would also need to ask your permission.



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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    At this point I am refusing to sign the policy. There are several others that feel the same way. We are trying to band together and get support.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Unionize
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Flipper wrote:
    Unionize


    Not a viable option at this time. However if we can get enough employees behind the issue that should force managment to reconsider.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    My guess is they CAN fire you for refusing to sign. The Wisconsin Equal Employment Law does have a provision where it is illegal to discriminate in employment for "use of a lawful product." But it specifically refers to the use of a lawful product outside of work time and off the employer's premises. The law was intended to cover alcohol and tobacco, but since it was never specifically narrowed down to those two things in the language it can conceivably cover anything that is a lawful product. So I think it is safe to say they cannot do anything against you for simply owning and using firearms. But on their property the law will support the employer.

    I know, it sucks!
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Will they be willing to terminate 1/2 thier staff? I suspect not. I will see if there is enough support drumed up.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Bale da Hay

    "Have you Spanked a leftist today; it's the Right thing to do!!!"


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    Wisconsin is a "no fault fire " state. They don't need a reason to fire you. Employers CAN search your locker without your permission it is their property. Employers do need probable cause (drugs alcohol guns or anything against the policy).As for the car issue you again are parking on their property so they can search you car through the windows. If they see a something that is against the rules they can ask you to search your car. If you refuse you can be fired. And you can bet LEO will be there. If it is against their policy your screwed. Best bet don't tell anyone you carry. Make sure you can't see it. You won't be able to trust anyone after the policy has changed. Employers can make rules as they see fit everything from smoking to cell phones and even if it is a bunch of BS it is still their policy.

    I dont thinkI would want to loose my job right now. I work at a machine shop and we get10 to20 applications a week from out of work people.

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    I thought I saw a law go through recently stating that a company couldn't fire you for bringing a weapon to work and leaving it secured inside of the vehicle in the parking lot.

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    That was in MN, FL and a couple other states, WI hasn't done anything like that yet.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Maybe its time we did something about it.

    Anyone know how to start a petition to send to our wonderful government?


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    I'm almost postive they CAN if you signthat form.

    Is there someplace nearby you can park off premises? Then they can't.

    But yeah, if they ask for permissionand you are on premises, you are giving up your rights. I still think they need a reason, but that's pretty easy to come by "so and so said he had a gun in his car"

    I think your options are sign it and don't keep a gun in your car,

    Quit

    Discuss withthe powers that be, your concerns with the policy.

    If that doesn't work,I wouldn't quit on principle. Finda good/better job FIRST and THEN quit on principle.

    When they start losing good employees because of a draconian policy, they'll change it.
    Here is another option:

    Do not sign that form. If they search or attempt to search your vehicle it is a violation of your fourth Amendment rights.

    In which case you sue them and then you own the company and can allow Open Carry in the work place....

    Do not sign that form, they can not fire you for not signing.

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    Lurchiron wrote:
    Flipper wrote:
    Unionize
    And start carrying your voice recorder, see if they slip up and threaten you; then nail them.

    Something similar but medical record related happened at work, they tried to get you to "volunteer" your info to them by burying the clause in the small print that gave them the right to review your whole life history for "Health Risk Asessment" purposes. The wife & I side-stepped them by demanding the tests they wanted to take, and then went to our family doctor; had them do the tests and relayed the info to the company.(Touche'-point good guys).

    In short, don'tsign the form; maybe persue them into letting you sign a waiver stating that you won't bring firearmson their property.



    Lurch out.
    Sounds like a violation of the HIPA Laws

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    LS16SpdZ99 wrote:
    Wisconsin is a "no fault fire " state. They don't need a reason to fire you. Employers CAN search your locker without your permission it is their property. Employers do need probable cause (drugs alcohol guns or anything against the policy).As for the car issue you again are parking on their property so they can search you car through the windows. If they see a something that is against the rules they can ask you to search your car. If you refuse you can be fired. And you can bet LEO will be there. If it is against their policy your screwed. Best bet don't tell anyone you carry. Make sure you can't see it. You won't be able to trust anyone after the policy has changed. Employers can make rules as they see fit everything from smoking to cell phones and even if it is a bunch of BS it is still their policy.

    I dont thinkI would want to loose my job right now. I work at a machine shop and we get10 to20 applications a week from out of work people.
    While the Plain Sight rule does apply, the employer cannot legally search the vehicle, only a law enforcement officer can. If there is nothing in plain sight then they cannot search either. At least not without your permission and without a warrant. There are also labor laws that apply here and they cannot fire your for not allowing them to search your property. Ok, they can fire you, but you will end up getting your job back and they will probably have to fill your pockets with CASH! This is one time you will need to have the courage to stand up for yourself.
    Now if you left your pot pipe laying on the seat or your fire arm laying on the seat (even in a case) they could terminate you. Although for terminating you on the fire arm issue I still think you would win in court on a constitutional grounds.

    By the way what is the name of this company so I know I won't be buying anything that comes from there?

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    I would advise you to call The Department of Workforce Development the phone number is 1 608 266 3131.They will give you correct information you need to make the right decision. Don't go off half cocked and start some drama you don't need to

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    LS16SpdZ99 wrote:
    I would advise you to call The Department of Workforce Development the phone number is 1 608 266 3131.They will give you correct information you need to make the right decision. Don't go off half cocked and start some drama you don't need to
    Drama! You call someone willingly giving up their 4A rights because they exercise their 2A right, drama?

    Ya know, I am going to leave it at that right now, I shouldn't even need to explain!

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    hugh jarmis wrote:
    I'm almost postive they CAN if you signthat form.

    Is there someplace nearby you can park off premises? Then they can't.

    But yeah, if they ask for permissionand you are on premises, you are giving up your rights. I still think they need a reason, but that's pretty easy to come by "so and so said he had a gun in his car"

    I think your options are sign it and don't keep a gun in your car,

    Quit

    Discuss withthe powers that be, your concerns with the policy.

    If that doesn't work,I wouldn't quit on principle. Finda good/better job FIRST and THEN quit on principle.

    When they start losing good employees because of a draconian policy, they'll change it.
    Here is another option:

    Do not sign that form. If they search or attempt to search your vehicle it is a violation of your fourth Amendment rights.

    In which case you sue them and then you own the company and can allow Open Carry in the work place....

    Do not sign that form, they can not fire you for not signing.
    I disagree. As I stated above, refusal to sign the form IS reason enough for them to fire you. As LS16SpdZ99 correctly points out, you can be fired for no reason whatsoever in Wisconsin! If you are refusing to sign their form you are basically refusing to follow the employer's work rules and that IS a legitimate reason to fire you.

    Employers cannot fire someone for a discriminatory reason, but any OTHER reason is legal. Firing without a reason is legal. A "discriminatory" reason means one of the few things specifically outlined by law, e.g., because of your age (over 40), your gender, marital status, religion, color, etc.

    Now, if one-half of the employees refused to sign the form and they only fired, say, the black workers who refused to sign it, or only the older workers, you might have a viable discrimination complaint. Lacking that, you're screwed my friend. And that's exactly what they'll tell you when you call the state Equal Rights Division. Call them and ask.
    A. Gold

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    Well nutz most of us have bills to pay, children to feed, house payments and medical insurance so willing to loose you job over something that you cant use at work well thats drama. Imagine coming home to you wife and tell her that you just got fired because you couldn't leave you gun at home.I wouldn't want to do that but at the same timeI don't agree with the policy.

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    Shotgun wrote:
    I disagree. As I stated above, refusal to sign the form IS reason enough for them to fire you. As LS16SpdZ99 correctly points out, you can be fired for no reason whatsoever in Wisconsin! If you are refusing to sign their form you are basically refusing to follow the employer's work rules and that IS a legitimate reason to fire you.

    Employers cannot fire someone for a discriminatory reason, but any OTHER reason is legal. Firing without a reason is legal. A "discriminatory" reason means one of the few things specifically outlined by law, e.g., because of your age (over 40), your gender, marital status, religion, color, etc.

    Now, if one-half of the employees refused to sign the form and they only fired, say, the black workers who refused to sign it, or only the older workers, you might have a viable discrimination complaint. Lacking that, you're screwed my friend. And that's exactly what they'll tell you when you call the state Equal Rights Division. Call them and ask.
    Again, if they fire you for this you would win in court for constitutional reasons in which case you would probably be very rich and wouldn't have to work for this loser company anyways. Also remember the pre-emptive statute. I think a judge looking at the facts would have to side with you and not the employer. Even though the pre-emptive statute addresses cities, towns, and villages, in a situation like this it could also set a precidence to extend that statute to employers as well. Besides I don't think you are going to find a police officer that is going to listen to your employer and search your vehicle. But then again stranger things have happened.

    Again, What is the name of the company?

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    At this point I am refusing to sign the policy. There are several others that feel the same way. We are trying to band together and get support.


    This is probably your best option. In addition do your VERY best not to be adversarial with management. You'll always get better outcomes trying to negotiate and agree then be defiant and fight. Maybe they don't understand the logic of law-abiding citizens keeping arms. Maybe they are making an emotional reaction. Maybe they are flaming liberals who are ruled by fear and not logic and you'll never appeal to them... Who knows... But try to be professional, objective, and reasoned first.

    You may be past that point, I don't know what kind of management you have there, but they may not be the "talking" type. If they are heavy handed, no-input-from-employees, type, you may not get far. (but thats another reason to put out some feelers for new employement)

    Far too many people in this country empower dickhead employers who have bad business practices by continuing to work for them because they are afraid of change. I do NOT advocate just quitting your job, but I STRONGLY advocate that you actively manage YOUR career (whether you area cpa, or a welder or a stocker in a grocery store) MANAGE your career by continually searching the job market in your spare time for better opportunities. When you find job openings, don't just be interviewed, INTERVIEW YOUR PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER. You want to know that you work for a reasonable and empathetic management team. GOOD employers already know the value of being GOOD to their most valuable resource (their employees).

    If you seek new opportunities while you are already gainfully employed, you have a 1000 percent stronger position to negotiate from. Now I'm not saying walk into the interview and say "can I bring my gun to work". But go through the process, get buy-in from a prospective employer and when they want YOU, THEN you tell them you will accept employement conditional upon a b and c (and one of those factors could be whether they honor employees constitutional rights and state law)

    Bad employers have been empowered by fearful and "resistant to change" employees for decades who put up with things they shouldn't because they are not willing to put forth the effort to seek better opportunities.

    Good luck. If you want help drafting a letter to management feel free to pm me. Or better yet if you get a letter put together I can review it and offer you suggestions on how to be more effective. I'm currently working on my company's firearms policy.




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    LS16SpdZ99 wrote:
    Well nutz most of us have bills to pay, children to feed, house payments and medical insurance so willing to loose you job over something that you cant use at work well thats drama. Imagine coming home to you wife and tell her that you just got fired because you couldn't leave you gun at home.I wouldn't want to do that but at the same timeI don't agree with the policy.
    Blatant search of private property with no probable cause! No way, No how, I would absolutley refuse to allow anyone to do that under any circumstances!!

    But if the employer has a "No Firearms" policy and wanted me to sign a sheet that stated I am not to have firearms on company property, I would have no issues with that whatsoever since that is their legal right
    But to allow a randomsearch of a vehicle with no parameters set,or any otherlimitations as to why or howis absolutely insane!
    Imagine coming home to your wife and explaining that you are allowing your employer to search your home if they see fit, or any other private propertyso you dont get fired!
    What if your employer didn't like you having sex with your wife during the week becuase they think it effects your job performance? Would you allow them to set up survelience in your home to verify you are following those demands?
    What would it take for you to say no? A body cavity search? Allowing them to search your home?

    A persons home and car is their castle, and should be treated as such. Nobody should allow any searches of those items at an employers discretion.

    Like I stated earlier, if the employer does not want any firearms on company property, then they should have emplyees sign a compliance agreement, Thats all! But not have the ability to go into peoples private conveyance anytime with no probable cause.

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    Your car is parked on their property. Your home is parked on yours. Bad example

    I understandwhat you are sayingNut andI don't mean to pee in anyones cornflakes and I'm glad people are as passionate as I am about this issue.Weather the rules you feel are wrong they are still in place for ALL employees protection. Ifhe follows the policy he has nothing to worry about.If it is a major concern that he /youcan't have it at work thenit is time to seek employment elsewhere. AgainI DO NOT agree with this policy.If you didn't want something or someone in you home andas theowner of that home you have the right to do that, as the owner of that company has the same rightto not allow guns. I would like to think that the "search at any time" clause is just a deterrent so people don'tbring them to work.




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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    I disagree. As I stated above, refusal to sign the form IS reason enough for them to fire you. As LS16SpdZ99 correctly points out, you can be fired for no reason whatsoever in Wisconsin! If you are refusing to sign their form you are basically refusing to follow the employer's work rules and that IS a legitimate reason to fire you.

    Employers cannot fire someone for a discriminatory reason, but any OTHER reason is legal. Firing without a reason is legal. A "discriminatory" reason means one of the few things specifically outlined by law, e.g., because of your age (over 40), your gender, marital status, religion, color, etc.

    Now, if one-half of the employees refused to sign the form and they only fired, say, the black workers who refused to sign it, or only the older workers, you might have a viable discrimination complaint. Lacking that, you're screwed my friend. And that's exactly what they'll tell you when you call the state Equal Rights Division. Call them and ask.
    Again, if they fire you for this you would win in court for constitutional reasons in which case you would probably be very rich and wouldn't have to work for this loser company anyways. Also remember the pre-emptive statute. I think a judge looking at the facts would have to side with you and not the employer. Even though the pre-emptive statute addresses cities, towns, and villages, in a situation like this it could also set a precidence to extend that statute to employers as well. Besides I don't think you are going to find a police officer that is going to listen to your employer and search your vehicle. But then again stranger things have happened.

    Again, What is the name of the company?
    I wish I could agree, but I'm afraid you'll be sorely disappointed and shocked when you learn how much employers can put restrictions on your constitutional rights. Right to free speech? Sure tell an ethnic joke on the street if you want. Tell that same joke at work and out the door you may go. Tell a girl at the beach that she has a nice ass, fine. Tell your secretary that at work. Goodbye! Write a letter to the editor saying that you think the governor is an *******. No problem. Write a letter to the editor saying that you think your company president is an *******, Adios!

    The courts have often backed up such infringements of your liberties. You have to remember that the Constitution primarily restricts what the government can do. The employer/employee relationship isn't the same in the eyes of the court. I'm not saying you could never win such a lawsuit, but I think it is far from the slam dunk you seem to believe it to be.

    As far the preemption statute, which is explicitly directed towards local units of government and their ordinances, getting a court to somehow apply that to a private employer is extremely far fetched. You'll have about the same luck with that as trying to argue that the trespassing law cannot apply to someone with a firearm who is asked to leave a store or shopping mall or your own personal property. Anything put into an employer's work rules will probably stand up to legal scrutiny unless it is illegal or outrageously unsafe. Telling you to leave your guns off of company property is not telling you to do something illegal because it is perfectly legal for you to leave your guns at home.

    In the situation we have here, my advice is to park elsewhere. If that is not possible, then either comply with the company's policy or work elsewhere. If you choose, disobey the policy and take your chances of getting fired. If you do get fired, don't expect to win if you file a complaint with the state, move it into the administrative appeals process, lose there, move it into court, and plan to lose there too. If anyone believes I'm mistaken that you'll lose every step of the process, then I might be willing to enter into a little wager of a hundred bucks with you.


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