Legal question regarding personal vehicle

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Shotgun wrote:

I disagree. As I stated above, refusal to sign the form IS reason enough for them to fire you. As LS16SpdZ99 correctly points out, you can be fired for no reason whatsoever in Wisconsin! If you are refusing to sign their form you are basically refusing to follow the employer's work rules and that IS a legitimate reason to fire you.

Employers cannot fire someone for a discriminatory reason, but any OTHER reason is legal. Firing without a reason is legal. A "discriminatory" reason means one of the few things specifically outlined by law, e.g., because of your age (over 40), your gender, marital status, religion, color, etc.

Now, if one-half of the employees refused to sign the form and they only fired, say, the black workers who refused to sign it, or only the older workers, you might have a viable discrimination complaint. Lacking that, you're screwed my friend. And that's exactly what they'll tell you when you call the state Equal Rights Division. Call them and ask.

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Again, if they fire you for this you would win in court for constitutional reasons in which case you would probably be very rich and wouldn't have to work for this loser company anyways. Also remember the pre-emptive statute. I think a judge looking at the facts would have to side with you and not the employer. Even though the pre-emptive statute addresses cities, towns, and villages, in a situation like this it could also set a precidence to extend that statute to employers as well. Besides I don't think you are going to find a police officer that is going to listen to your employer and search your vehicle. But then again stranger things have happened.

Again, What is the name of the company?

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At this point I am refusing to sign the policy. There are several others that feel the same way. We are trying to band together and get support.

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This is probably your best option. In addition do your VERY best not to be adversarial with management. You'll always get better outcomes trying to negotiate and agree then be defiant and fight. Maybe they don't understand the logic of law-abiding citizens keeping arms. Maybe they are making an emotional reaction. Maybe they are flaming liberals who are ruled by fear and not logic and you'll never appeal to them... Who knows... But try to be professional, objective, and reasoned first.

You may be past that point, I don't know what kind of management you have there, but they may not be the "talking" type. If they are heavy handed, no-input-from-employees, type, you may not get far. (but thats another reason to put out some feelers for new employement)

Far too many people in this country empower dickhead employers who have bad business practices by continuing to work for them because they are afraid of change. I do NOT advocate just quitting your job, but I STRONGLY advocate that you actively manage YOUR career (whether you area cpa, or a welder or a stocker in a grocery store) MANAGE your career by continually searching the job market in your spare time for better opportunities. When you find job openings, don't just be interviewed, INTERVIEW YOUR PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER. You want to know that you work for a reasonable and empathetic management team. GOOD employers already know the value of being GOOD to their most valuable resource (their employees).

If you seek new opportunities while you are already gainfully employed, you have a 1000 percent stronger position to negotiate from. Now I'm not saying walk into the interview and say "can I bring my gun to work". But go through the process, get buy-in from a prospective employer and when they want YOU, THEN you tell them you will accept employement conditional upon a b and c (and one of those factors could be whether they honor employees constitutional rights and state law)

Bad employers have been empowered by fearful and "resistant to change" employees for decades who put up with things they shouldn't because they are not willing to put forth the effort to seek better opportunities.

Good luck. If you want help drafting a letter to management feel free to pm me. Or better yet if you get a letter put together I can review it and offer you suggestions on how to be more effective. I'm currently working on my company's firearms policy.

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LS16SpdZ99 wrote:

Well nutz most of us have bills to pay, children to feed, house payments and medical insurance so willing to loose you job over something that you cant use at work well thats drama. Imagine coming home to you wife and tell her that you just got fired because you couldn't leave you gun at home.I wouldn't want to do that but at the same timeI don't agree with the policy.

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Blatant search of private property with no probable cause! No way, No how, I would absolutley refuse to allow anyone to do that under any circumstances!!

But if the employer has a "No Firearms" policy and wanted me to sign a sheet that stated I am not to have firearms on company property, I would have no issues with that whatsoever since that is their legal right
But to allow a randomsearch of a vehicle with no parameters set,or any otherlimitations as to why or howis absolutely insane!
Imagine coming home to your wife and explaining that you are allowing your employer to search your home if they see fit, or any other private propertyso you dont get fired!
What if your employer didn't like you having sex with your wife during the week becuase they think it effects your job performance? Would you allow them to set up survelience in your home to verify you are following those demands?
What would it take for you to say no? A body cavity search? Allowing them to search your home?

A persons home and car is their castle, and should be treated as such. Nobody should allow any searches of those items at an employers discretion.

Like I stated earlier, if the employer does not want any firearms on company property, then they should have emplyees sign a compliance agreement, Thats all! But not have the ability to go into peoples private conveyance anytime with no probable cause.

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Your car is parked on their property. Your home is parked on yours. Bad example

I understandwhat you are sayingNut andI don't mean to pee in anyones cornflakes and I'm glad people are as passionate as I am about this issue.Weather the rules you feel are wrong they are still in place for ALL employees protection. Ifhe follows the policy he has nothing to worry about.If it is a major concern that he /youcan't have it at work thenit is time to seek employment elsewhere. AgainI DO NOT agree with this policy.If you didn't want something or someone in you home andas theowner of that home you have the right to do that, as the owner of that company has the same rightto not allow guns. I would like to think that the "search at any time" clause is just a deterrent so people don'tbring them to work.

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J.Gleason wrote:

Shotgun wrote:

I disagree. As I stated above, refusal to sign the form IS reason enough for them to fire you. As LS16SpdZ99 correctly points out, you can be fired for no reason whatsoever in Wisconsin! If you are refusing to sign their form you are basically refusing to follow the employer's work rules and that IS a legitimate reason to fire you.

Employers cannot fire someone for a discriminatory reason, but any OTHER reason is legal. Firing without a reason is legal. A "discriminatory" reason means one of the few things specifically outlined by law, e.g., because of your age (over 40), your gender, marital status, religion, color, etc.

Now, if one-half of the employees refused to sign the form and they only fired, say, the black workers who refused to sign it, or only the older workers, you might have a viable discrimination complaint. Lacking that, you're screwed my friend. And that's exactly what they'll tell you when you call the state Equal Rights Division. Call them and ask.

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Again, if they fire you for this you would win in court for constitutional reasons in which case you would probably be very rich and wouldn't have to work for this loser company anyways. Also remember the pre-emptive statute. I think a judge looking at the facts would have to side with you and not the employer. Even though the pre-emptive statute addresses cities, towns, and villages, in a situation like this it could also set a precidence to extend that statute to employers as well. Besides I don't think you are going to find a police officer that is going to listen to your employer and search your vehicle. But then again stranger things have happened.

Again, What is the name of the company?

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I wish I could agree, but I'm afraid you'll be sorely disappointed and shocked when you learn how much employers can put restrictions on your constitutional rights. Right to free speech? Sure tell an ethnic joke on the street if you want. Tell that same joke at work and out the door you may go. Tell a girl at the beach that she has a nice ass, fine. Tell your secretary that at work. Goodbye! Write a letter to the editor saying that you think the governor is an asshole. No problem. Write a letter to the editor saying that you think your company president is an asshole, Adios!

The courts have often backed up such infringements of your liberties. You have to remember that the Constitution primarily restricts what the government can do. The employer/employee relationship isn't the same in the eyes of the court. I'm not saying you could never win such a lawsuit, but I think it is far from the slam dunk you seem to believe it to be.

As far the preemption statute, which is explicitly directed towards local units of government and their ordinances, getting a court to somehow apply that to a private employer is extremely far fetched. You'll have about the same luck with that as trying to argue that the trespassing law cannot apply to someone with a firearm who is asked to leave a store or shopping mall or your own personal property. Anything put into an employer's work rules will probably stand up to legal scrutiny unless it is illegal or outrageously unsafe. Telling you to leave your guns off of company property is not telling you to do something illegal because it is perfectly legal for you to leave your guns at home.

In the situation we have here, my advice is to park elsewhere. If that is not possible, then either comply with the company's policy or work elsewhere. If you choose, disobey the policy and take your chances of getting fired. If you do get fired, don't expect to win if you file a complaint with the state, move it into the administrative appeals process, lose there, move it into court, and plan to lose there too. If anyone believes I'm mistaken that you'll lose every step of the process, then I might be willing to enter into a little wager of a hundred bucks with you.

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http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/searches_at_work_legal_issues_to_consider.html

A goodarticle on this very topic that you might want to read. It focuses on lockers but also covers cars and the requirement of an employer to get it in writing ahead of time.

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Shotgun you couldn't put it better.

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As an employer can read an open forum I will not disclose any names or information that may alert them.

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I concur with Shotgun; WI is an "employment at will" state, meaning you or your employer can break the terms of employment at any time for any reason, or no reason at all, and go your separate ways.

I would just go ahead and sign it, and then if they ever want to search your car, refuse. At that point, they'll fire you for the weapon anyways, so you might as well tell them to @#$% off and find another job. Just keep it quiet and go about your business. They are just playing CYA with their liability, and they most likely don't care to ever search your car.

My employer has an even more heinous policy (which may or may not be followed by a large portion of the workforce - it's in a bad neighborhood and we're all conservatives/libertarians so you do the math). The policy not only states "no weapons (not even pepper spray) of any kind on company property," but it also says we CAN'T PARK OUTSIDE OF THE EMPLOYEE LOT!!!!!! It's part of the "safety" policy.

@#$%ers.


EDIT: Gleason, I'd like to clear up a fundamental misunderstanding you seem to have. The government is constrained by constitutional measures, and individuals (companies) are constrained by the law. Unless there is an overlap (like the "protected class" laws and such), individuals cannot violate someone's constitutional rights. Search and seizure constraints simply do not apply to individuals outside of normal burglary/larsony/theft laws.

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Well just to clear up any misunderstandings you may have. I owned my own business for many years. I had 32 employees working for me and I am very well aware of what my attorney told me as far as employee rights. With that in mind please feel free to handle the situation any way you wish, it doesn't effect me either way.

And by the way the 4th amendment does apply.

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Your rights dont go away while working, but if you refuse a contract or break rules between you and an employer that is not discriminatory or biased you will be fired. They are asking you in a contract to give up some of your rights, you have a choice to sign or find a different job. MANY companies and governments do this, it is not unconstitutional. You are on their property so their laws and regulations are what they decide, it is simple as that.

You have the right to bear arms and protection from unreasonable searches on your property or in public. If a store, company, or someones property has rules saying different you have the right to stay away or find a better job. The reason they are asking you to sign that contract is they are asking you to give up an implied right they overlooked when hiring you.

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Even if you sign, if you later refuse to allow the search, and drive off, the worst they can do is fire you.

Let's do a hypothetical: Your employer's agent say's "OK, we need to search your car, give us the keys." You respond by saying "No way, I revoke any permission i might have ever given you - if you touch my car, I am suing you."

What's the employer going to do? tresspass or destroy your property?

Or you could refuse to sign and stop parking on company grounds.