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Thread: National Parks Law

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    The U.S. Senate and U.S. House have passed a law allowing carry in National Parks.

    While most of the media is saying that this is codifying the Bush rule (CC w/ permit only), a few have stated that this brings NPS and FWS land under state firearms laws, meaning open carry (in those states where legal) would be legal in National Parks as well as wildlife refuges.

    Now, on to Obama for his signature.

    If anyone knows how to navigate the Library of Congress and find the actual text of the bill (I tried but no success), I'd love to read it so I can see if it follows all state laws, or just the CC part.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Yooper wrote:
    The U.S. Senate and U.S. House have passed a law allowing carry in National Parks.

    While most of the media is saying that this is codifying the Bush rule (CC w/ permit only), a few have stated that this brings NPS and FWS land under state firearms laws, meaning open carry (in those states where legal) would be legal in National Parks as well as wildlife refuges.

    Now, on to Obama for his signature.

    If anyone knows how to navigate the Library of Congress and find the actual text of the bill (I tried but no success), I'd love to read it so I can see if it follows all state laws, or just the CC part.
    I use this site, here is what they have: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-627

    Here is the section which refers to firearms and national parks:

    SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.
    (a) Congressional Findings- Congress finds the following:
    (1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed’.
    (2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that ‘except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net’.
    (3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not ‘possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges’ of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.
    (4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--
    (A) the National Park System; and
    (B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.
    (5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.
    (6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--
    (A) on March 19, 2009, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and
    (B) the new regulations--
    (i) are under review by the administration; and
    (ii) may be altered.
    (7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.
    (8) The Federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System should not be infringed.
    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    well, me being a non-lawyer type, would read that to mean that if open carry is legal in the state the park is located in, that it would also be legal in that park.

    This would be great news!!!

    There's 1 big reason I haven't been to Isle Royal N.P. This bill will get rid of that reason.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Yooper wrote:
    well, me being a non-lawyer type, would read that to mean that if open carry is legal in the state the park is located in, that it would also be legal in that park.

    This would be great news!!!

    There's 1 big reason I haven't been to Isle Royal N.P. This bill will get rid of that reason.
    As the legislation is written, it APPEARS you are correct. (IANAL, though)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Yooper wrote:
    well, me being a non-lawyer type, would read that to mean that if open carry is legal in the state the park is located in, that it would also be legal in that park.

    This would be great news!!!

    There's 1 big reason I haven't been to Isle Royal N.P. This bill will get rid of that reason.
    I would interpret it to mean that you can carry anywhere, including ranger stations and other buildings as well. But maybe units is defined.

    b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Yooper wrote:
    well, me being a non-lawyer type, would read that to mean that if open carry is legal in the state the park is located in, that it would also be legal in that park.

    This would be great news!!!

    There's 1 big reason I haven't been to Isle Royal N.P. This bill will get rid of that reason.
    I would interpret it to mean that you can carry anywhere, including ranger stations and other buildings as well. But maybe units is defined.

    b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System
    I concur.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Yooper wrote:
    There's 1 big reason I haven't been to Isle Royal N.P. This bill will get rid of that reason.
    The woods in Northern Michigan intimidate me because there aren't shopping malls every few miles with suburbs filled with homes surrounding those malls. This means that wildlife those could potentially view me as prey are more likely to be seen if I am in said woods. I have not ventured much further than St. Ignace, but have made a pitstop on some state land up there and did not feel comfortable because I was unarmed at the time. I can't wait to check out what the U.P. has to offer/see but you can bet your sweet tucous I will be carrying when I do!

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    HA. And to think our sheriff was issuing permits (on a near shall-issue basis) prior to the shall issue law going into effect because he knew people didn't feel safe driving downstate. You guys get scared when there's more than a couple of miles between towns, we get scared when there isn't.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    That's funny.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    WASHINGTON - A new law allowing loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges will not take effect until next year, the Interior Department said. President Obama signed the gun law yesterday as part of a measure creating new rules for the credit-card industry. But because the credit-card law won't take effect until nine months after its signing, Interior spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff said, the gun measure also will be delayed.
    Berkoff said the department would follow Congress' directive and put the new firearms law in effect in late February.

    Until then, rules adopted under the Reagan administration remain in place. The rules severely restrict guns in national parks, generally requiring that guns be locked or stored. - AP

    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I don't recall seeing anyone list the actual date, and I happened upon it this morning; February 22, 2010. We should look a little closer to see where the state of Michigan falls on this. I believe that they restrict certain areas, like campgrounds and the like to CPL holders. More discussion and research is needed.

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    jfrenchudm wrote:
    I don't recall seeing anyone list the actual date, and I happened upon it this morning; February 22, 2010. We should look a little closer to see where the state of Michigan falls on this. I believe that they restrict certain areas, like campgrounds and the like to CPL holders. More discussion and research is needed.
    The state can restrict in State parks, but not national parks. Because Michigan has both Concealed carry with a permit and OC with or without a permit this federal law allows us to carry under the state law in national parks and lakeshores.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    The state has spoken on this and it is legal to either OC or CC in state parks. It is also legal to OC or CC in National forests, grasslands, BLM land and in Febuary 2010 it will be legal to OC or CC in MI National Parks.

    The new law on National Parks makes it so that the rules in the State regarding state parks sets the president for that state. Since MI allows carry in state parks that will mean that National Parks will be ok as well! It is actually a good law as it leaves state rights intact! So if a state has a law that says no carry in state parks you would not be able to carry in National Parks in that state .. but you could lobby your state govt. to get that changed...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    One other thing intent to poach in any place will get you into major trouble so walking around in a state or national park with a loaded gun in your hand would not be a good idea as a DNR officer or park ranger could construe that as intent to poach. However if the gun is in a holster you should not have any problems! I discussed this with the SW MI DNR office and they were surprisingly supportive of either OC and CC .. The comment that the genteleman I spoke with was " we deal with armed people all the time and most are very nice folks who just want to follow the law and do what is right" He also went on to say that the DNR understands the need for self defence both against 4 legged predeters and 2 legged ones.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    One other thing intent to poach in any place will get you into major trouble so walking around in a state or national park with a loaded gun in your hand would not be a good idea as a DNR officer or park ranger could construe that as intent to poach. However if the gun is in a holster you should not have any problems! I discussed this with the SW MI DNR office and they were surprisingly supportive of either OC and CC .. The comment that the genteleman I spoke with was " we deal with armed people all the time and most are very nice folks who just want to follow the law and do what is right" He also went on to say that the DNR understands the need for self defence both against 4 legged predeters and 2 legged ones.
    I hunt often in the Sleeping Bear National Lakeshore. Some national parks and lakeshores allow hunting.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hunting is not a problem if you have a Hunting License! However if you do not have one then keep it in the holster! Oh and no carrying long guns in a state park or federal land without a hunting license! That is a good way to lose your gun and vehicle and spend time with bubba!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Hunting is not a problem if you have a Hunting License! However if you do not have one then keep it in the holster! Oh and no carrying long guns in a state park or federal land without a hunting license! That is a good way to lose your gun and vehicle and spend time with bubba!
    But I like Bubba!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    To each his own:shock: :celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Hunting is not a problem if you have a Hunting License! However if you do not have one then keep it in the holster! Oh and no carrying long guns in a state park or federal land without a hunting license! That is a good way to lose your gun and vehicle and spend time with bubba!
    I've always been a little bit hazy on the laws concerning state land carry. I do know that it's legal to target shoot on state land, I believe because there is no law against it. That's why I've always thought loaded open carry was okay on state land, because you could say you were looking for a safe back stop to shoot at.

    The trouble is that state game regulations are pretty well out of the scope of my understanding. :?


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    As I recall, there are different regulations in the state with regards to forests, parks, refuges, etc. There are certain parks that allow hunting, others that allow hunting in certain areas only, and others yet that allow hunting in certain areas, during certain times of the year (see Bald Mtn.). When it comes to hunting, the DNR has seriously muddied the waters.

    My original point had only to do with SD, not hunting, as I understand the hunting rules quite well (I used to OC while bow hunting, until the DNR specifically outlawed it w/o a CPL). I seem to recall that the DNR had placed restrictions on carry (with exception to CPL) in campgrounds and state parks (not in areas open to hunting). I am having a hard time finding supporting documentation, and just want to make sure that we have full clarification that may be placed in the FAQs.

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    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Hunting is not a problem if you have a Hunting License! However if you do not have one then keep it in the holster! Oh and no carrying long guns in a state park or federal land without a hunting license! That is a good way to lose your gun and vehicle and spend time with bubba!
    Not true. You can target shoot on state land with no hunting license, as long as you have an identifiable and artificial backstop. And, of course are not attempting to take game.

    License Requirement - Possession of Firearms and Bows and Arrows
    A person taking or attempting to take game and in possession of a firearm, slingshot or bow and arrow must have the appropriate hunting license with them and the identification used to purchase that license and exhibit both upon demand of a Michigan Conservation Officer, a Tribal Conservation Officer or any other law enforcement officer.
    A hunting license is not required when target practicing or sighting-in a firearm at an identifiable, artificially constructed target, and there is no attempt to take game. A hunting license is not required for the carrying of a pistol for personal protection by a camper, hiker or person engaged in other recreational activities if there is no attempt to take game.

    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1578--,00.html

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    If the state land has a range you can use it true... however you may not just go about setting up your own range on state land.

    Federal land has slightly diff rules one where you may or may not target shoot.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    I stand corrected, my apologies to autosurgeon. It must be at a designated range. The section did not state that. I also called the DNR for conformation.

    Sorry about that.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    No problem.. I should have stated in my original post that ranges on state land were ok!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    If the state land has a range you can use it true... however you may not just go about setting up your own range on state land.

    Federal land has slightly diff rules one where you may or may not target shoot.
    Show mea citeabout target shooting on state land. I was under the impression that you can target shoot on state land, regardless of a DNR range. I need a cite please.

    We use to shoot on state land all the time, we just had to have a safe background and we could cut down or destroy trees and brush. The pit in Lapeer is on state land and it's not a DNR "range".
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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