Okay, need some help with a festival.

paramedic70002 · May 24, 2009

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Dang just the other day I read a nice letter from some 1A organization that quoted a court case saying you CAN NOT limit rights based on leasing public property to a private entity. I think it was on defensivecarry.com somewhere.

And wow the RC has some killer rules, like they MAKE you wear sunscreen???

paramedic70002 · May 24, 2009

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Here's the note I just shot off to the "CONTACT US" email address at the bottom of the screen ( brunsond@usa.redcross.org ):

--------------------

Subject: Your rules for attending the Alexandria, VA waterfront festival

You can not make me wear sunscreen and you especially can not keep me from open or concealed carry of a firearm. This event is being held on city property. The city cannot lease away public rights. There are federal court cases that substantiate this. I suggest you contact whoever you can in the city attorneys office and have them check with the city attorney (Pishko) in Norfolk. Find out what their track record is with Danladi Moore. Multiple payouts and no convictions. Ask them about Chet Syzmecki from Harbor Fest (Fest Events) at Town Point Park.

Your rules are being aired out on pro gun forums on the internet, and have the attention of pro gun organizations. Expect massive resistance to this illegal rule.

So let this be my notice to you. I will attend, and I will be armed. I may be arrested but I will be richer for the experience. And since the RC is foisting this prohibition against me, it won't be just the city coffers that get raided in the aftermath.

My advice to you is to remove this rule immediately before it causes more trouble than it prevents. City attorney Chris Spera does not know what he is talking about.

Signed,

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx

TFred · May 24, 2009

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paramedic70002 wrote:

Here's the note I just shot off to the "CONTACT US" email address at the bottom of the screen ( brunsond@usa.redcross.org ):

--------------------

Subject: Your rules for attending the Alexandria, VA waterfront festival

You can not make me wear sunscreen and you especially can not keep me from open or concealed carry of a firearm. This event is being held on city property. The city cannot lease away public rights. There are federal court cases that substantiate this. I suggest you contact whoever you can in the city attorneys office and have them check with the city attorney (Pishko) in Norfolk. Find out what their track record is with Danladi Moore. Multiple payouts and no convictions. Ask them about Chet Syzmecki from Harbor Fest (Fest Events) at Town Point Park.

Your rules are being aired out on pro gun forums on the internet, and have the attention of pro gun organizations. Expect massive resistance to this illegal rule.

So let this be my notice to you. I will attend, and I will be armed. I may be arrested but I will be richer for the experience. And since the RC is foisting this prohibition against me, it won't be just the city coffers that get raided in the aftermath.

My advice to you is to remove this rule immediately before it causes more trouble than it prevents. City attorney Chris Spera does not know what he is talking about.

Signed,

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx

I think I do agree with others that I find "pro Second Amendment" or "pro Self Defense" or something similar, to be much more effective than "pro gun". "Pro gun" is what the crazies call us, and it removes all context from our position.

I do like the letter, at a very minimum, they are going to have their legal folks all over this, checking out your examples. If they have hired smart legal folks, then they will change their rules.

I probably wouldn't do it myself, but as an example of "what you would want to say", I've always thought it would be fun to tell them what extravagant item you plan to buy with their money after you win the lawsuit.

TFred

MSC 45ACP · May 24, 2009

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I like the idea of engraving a high quality firearm with the name(s) of the organization(s) that contributed to the purchase thereof...

ed · May 25, 2009

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

I like the idea of engraving a high quality firearm with the name(s) of the organization(s) that contributed to the purchase thereof...

Yeah.. that would ruin it for me. I would just tell people about it. But I don't want to purchase a new beautiful Kimber to have it engraved with "Purchased for Ed by the city of Alexandria, VA"

Edit: Unless they would publically display it in one of their courhouses or museums

ed · May 25, 2009

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Fairfax Fair has it right.. after we contacted them last year there removed the web page note (and I OC'ed there without incident). This year the Fairfax Fair web reads:

darthmord · May 26, 2009

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I have never understood why it's so hard for organizations to follow the law. The law is typically very clear about what is and is NOT allowed. It's like parking a car. Stay between the lines and you are okay. Park across the lines and you start pissing people off who will take you task over it.

MSC 45ACP · May 26, 2009

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When you attend this event, you better not bring your voice recorder as THAT is a prohibited item...

ed · May 26, 2009

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

When you attend this event, you better not bring your voice recorder as THAT is a prohibited item...

Only if you plan on recording the entertainment.

MSC 45ACP · May 26, 2009

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But isn't being "accosted" by LE considered "part ofa day's entertainment"???

We could consider it entertainment at the end of the day because it's going on Youtube and you'll get paid for it (eventually).

Sounds like "professional entertainment" to me!

richarcm · May 27, 2009

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Wow. Good job everyone! Thank you very much for taking the time to act on this. Even if they refuse to take the rule down....we at least let them know we are watching and that we aren't going to just let this crap slide.

RedKnightt · May 27, 2009

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Update:

I spoke with the Red Cross Special Events Manager Dana Brunson and she told me that they were in the process of making a decision. They are expecting to have a response quickly (I got the impression of the next day or two). Shockingly, mine was not the only e-mail she received

.

I'm going to give them until Friday afternoon to respond and then will contact them to follow up. Mrs.(Ms?) Brunson was very polite and professional and hopefully the RC will maintain that attitude while they remove the illegal rule.

Further updates as I get them.

Marco · May 27, 2009

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One can only imagine that the RC's, CoP, Mayor andcity Attny(?) all received lots of mail regarding this issue.

possumboy · May 27, 2009

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Has anyone pointed out Dan's ruling with Waterfront?

Also, years ago, I remember something like this happening in Richmond. Richmond leased the public streets to a company and were searching people's bags on the sidewalk.

If I remember correctly, Mike even won a FIOA suit against Richmond involving this.

I would look to see if I can find anything about it.

Marco · May 27, 2009

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Just received this:

[line]

Mr. H,

Thank you for contacting us with your concerns regarding the admission rules to the Alexandria Chapter of the Red Cross 2009 Waterfront Festival. I appreciate your steadfast vigilance in looking out for the rights of citizens and hope that you can appreciate the ability of the Alexandria Chapter to establish rules of admission to its private fundraising event.

The Alexandria, VA Chapter of the American Red Cross is holding its annual fundraiser this June 20-21, in Oronoco Park. This is property owned by the city of Alexandria, but rented to the Alexandria Chapter of the Red Cross for our use regarding this event.

According to the City Attorney's office of the City of Alexandria -- for the duration of the Festival, the American Red Cross as a private operator of this gated event has the right to set certain rules and conditions of entry, including imposing restrictions on firearms.

This condition of entry has been in place for the 28-year history of this event, and is for the purpose of ensuring the safety of Waterfront Festival attendees.

The American Red Cross takes no position regarding the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, or any issues that surround the right to carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, in the state of Virginia.

We do, however, ask that patrons to the Festival respect the rules of admission that we have legally established and feel are in the best interests of our patrons, entertainers, vendors and volunteers.

Thank you again for contacting us; if you have any further concerns please let me know.

Lissette S. Bishins

Executive Director

American Red Cross, Alexandria Chapter

123 N. Alfred Street

Alexandria, VA 22314

bishinsl@usa.redcross.org

www.alexandriaredcross.org

TFred · May 27, 2009

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It's always amusing when people go on the record with admitting that they plan to break the law. They aren't criminals, but they sure are stupid. Someone needs to make a new version of that morning radio drive time bit: "Civil Rights Violators Are Stupid!"

Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "Criminals Are Stupid" though...

TFred

RedKnightt · May 27, 2009

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Agent19 wrote:

Just received this: <snip>

I got the same letter. Here is my response:

Mrs. Bishins,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. While I appreciate that the Red Cross does not take a position on the subject of firearms, the Commonwealth of Virginia does. It reserves to itself, and not to counties and cities, the sole right to pass laws and rules regarding the legal carrying of firearms. This is known as "State Preemption" and is listed in the Virginia State Code:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915

Virginia is so adamant about this preemption that the General Assembly just passed HB 1655/SB 1513, which allows for those challenging preempted locals to recover "reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs".

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?ses=091&typ=bil&val=hb1655

The City of Alexandria, despite its claims, simply does not have the authority to restrict firearms on public land such as Oronoco Bay Park, and therefore cannot delegate that authority to anyone using that land. It would be analogous to allowing a private party to discriminate against people based on race, sex, age, etc. on public lands.

May I strongly suggest you speak to independent legal counsel concerning this and get an opinion from someone other than myself or the City of Alexandria. Localities such as Richmond and Norfolk have attempted to restrict the rights of citizens in this same manor previously and failed, often to the financial detriment of those cities.

Thank you again for your time, and I sincerely hope we can resolve this issue amiably.

I suspect the Red Cross will listen to the City of Alexandria. I suspect this will end up in court.

Marco · May 27, 2009

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RedKnightt wrote: snip

Agent19 wrote:

Just received this: <snip>

Click to expand...

Here is my response:

I justsent asimilar email with a link to this http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/VCDLLetterToRadford.pdf
and other points.

paramedic70002 · May 27, 2009

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My reply:

Thank you for your reply/form letter. I believe others have responded with some concerns you should address, so I won't bother repeating them here. Lets just say that I know you and the local attorney are wrong, and I don't mind being arrested to prove I'm right.So we'll see how this all plays out.

ed · May 27, 2009

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paramedic70002 wrote:

My reply:

Thank you for your reply/form letter. I believe others have responded with some concerns you should address, so I won't bother repeating them here. Lets just say that I know you and the local attorney are wrong, and I don't mind being arrested to prove I'm right.So we'll see how this all plays out.

Ok.. so we all know where they stand.. and we all know where we stand... if we go to the gate armed and get denied entry do we have cause and damage? If we have chp's and go in concealed and then go OC and get removed by verbal warning or phisically if we say no.. I don't know.. but I think we need an attorney to guide us... either way I plan on going to the event armed.

Okay, need some help with a festival.

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