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Thread: Harassed by Highland Det. in Meijer

  1. #1
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    Got hasseled by a tax-parasite tonight at Meijers.A Det. Cpl. from Highland police told me I had to cover up my gun, to which i replied no. After a discussion, he got irate that someone didn't recognize his power, and threatened to arrest me the next time he saw me. When I asked for his name and badge, he got in my face and told me he would be waiting for me outside and would arrest me when i left the store. I left, and never saw him again. What a complete dick. I'm going to the Highland police department tomorrow to file a complaint. I'd like to talk to the chief first and try to come to an understanding that open carry is allowed in IN and his officers shouldn't be harassing people. If I have to be a dick and file a complaint, I will, but I don't really want to. I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.

    Anybody else have issues with the Highland tax eaters not knowing the Indiana Code?

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    Indiana code or not, that guy just committed a federal felony.

    Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
    Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law

    This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

    This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

    Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

    Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
    I'd drop this statute in the formal complaint, noting that you reserve the right to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law if this behavior is not fixed department-wide.

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    already printed copies of the USC in case I need to reference them. thanks!

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    ghengis86 wrote:
    Got hasseled by a tax-parasite tonight at Meijers.A Det. Cpl. from Highland police told me I had to cover up my gun, to which i replied no. After a discussion, he got irate that someone didn't recognize his power, and threatened to arrest me the next time he saw me. When I asked for his name and badge, he got in my face and told me he would be waiting for me outside and would arrest me when i left the store. I left, and never saw him again. What a complete dick. I'm going to the Highland police department tomorrow to file a complaint. I'd like to talk to the chief first and try to come to an understanding that open carry is allowed in IN and his officers shouldn't be harassing people. If I have to be a dick and file a complaint, I will, but I don't really want to. I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.

    Anybody else have issues with the Highland tax eaters not knowing the Indiana Code?
    "I'll be waiting for you....outside." Wow, I haven't heard a threat like that since Billy the Bully challenged me to meet him behind the gym in 5th grade.

    "I'm gonna arrest you the next time I see you." And you're not doing it now because? ...don't your powers of arrest extend to the interior of Meijers?

    You did the right thing; you didn't cave to his opinionated demands and held your ground. For what it's worth, please, Please file a complaint. The only time things will get fixed is when attention is drawn.


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    ghengis86 wrote:
    Got hasseled by a tax-parasite tonight at Meijers.A Det. Cpl. from Highland police told me I had to cover up my gun, to which i replied no. After a discussion, he got irate that someone didn't recognize his power, and threatened to arrest me the next time he saw me. When I asked for his name and badge, he got in my face and told me he would be waiting for me outside and would arrest me when i left the store. I left, and never saw him again. What a complete dick. I'm going to the Highland police department tomorrow to file a complaint. I'd like to talk to the chief first and try to come to an understanding that open carry is allowed in IN and his officers shouldn't be harassing people. If I have to be a dick and file a complaint, I will, but I don't really want to. I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.

    Anybody else have issues with the Highland tax eaters not knowing the Indiana Code?
    This site should give you all the contact info. we need! Your Det. Cpl. should be easy to find...... http://www.highlandpolice.com/

    I have emailed the Chief to see if there is anything we need to know special about Highland or if there just might have been an isolated situation.

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    i know who he is, but won't post it here; i got his name last night. there are only three so you're right, not too hard to find. i hope to hear from his superior, a commander, later today.



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    Vicotry is mine!

    I spoke with the commander and he told me that he spoke with Indiana State Police and they say the law is 'silent' on the open/concealed carry, so that carrying openly is in fact legal and permitted. (he told me it was a recent change in the last few years, which i don't know, so i didn't contest that). I asked that between the two of us, if we could get a true legal opinion from the attorney general or county prosecuter, and use that as the authority (legal advice from law enforcement? no thanks!). he said he'd pursue it and call me later today or next week tuesday. I also asked that he make everyone aware in his department that open carry is legal and he said he would because he didn't want any of his officers to get caught up in a similar situation of not knowing the law. so i think it was a great success for open carry.

    although, I still would like an apology from the tax-feeder for his intimidation and harassment.

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    I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.



    Lawsuits are not oppressively time consuming or expensive. You lack the knowledge and willingness to do it, IMHO.

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    codename_47 wrote:
    I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.



    Lawsuits are not oppressively time consuming or expensive. You lack the knowledge and willingness to do it, IMHO.
    well then by all means, fill me in on what i'm so ignorant about; any references would be most appreciated.

    although as i stated before, getting them to acknowledge their error and the legality of open carry is my true goal. FYI, I did contact a civil rights attorney for real legal advice, not just forum humble opinions.

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    http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/PDF%20Do...%204-21-09.pdf

    This is just one I found, but just about every Federal court I've seen has a pro-se manual on the court's website with sample forms, definitions, flowcharts, the works.

    If you can't afford an atty and you can't find one to take the case on contingency, then do it yourself. As long as you can look up laws and post in a coherent fashion here, you should be able to handle yourself just fine in court. Filing fees are a whopping $350, but you can get those waived as well by filing an informa paupis with the court. This isn't a slam dunk civil rights case, mind you, but at a minimum, I'd go confront the chief and the officer with a complaint written out and put it in no uncertain terms that if they so much as look twice in your direction again, you will be filing.

    www.proselitigant .net had some good sample forms, but you have to go to the internet archive to get them.

    I'm not sure how or why people here look up laws and definitions and such and are willing to shoot/kill someone in thestreet,but are seemingly afraid to in court and defeat themselves without even trying. Your complaint is worthless, IMHO and it isn't just yours, I have a low opinion of formal complaints in general, as they don't cost anyone any money. If complaints changed cop behavior, we wouldn't have the out of control situation that we have now.

    If you want to send a REAL signal, I'd sue that cop personally and the department.Whatto gofor may be in question. Did he unlawfully detain you? Did he threaten you improperly? Were you harmed by that? What do you want in return for his actions? It could be for not more than for aninjunction against futureharassment from the cop and a declaratory judgment.

    and before anyone laments about how hard or impossible it is, the following guy went pro-se all the way to the supreme court and won on similar type conduct by the police.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolender_v._Lawson

    I'm no lawyer, but lets just say I'm no stranger to court, and it has generally been on the right (Plaintiff) side of things.

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    thanks; i appreciate the links and insight. aside from your general disdain for most everything in general, that was very helpful. i think i agree with you on the complaint vs. sue; money talks. i'll take the weekend to think it through.

    regards

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Indiana code or not, that guy just committed a federal felony.

    Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
    Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law

    This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

    This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

    Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

    Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
    I'd drop this statute in the formal complaint, noting that you reserve the right to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law if this behavior is not fixed department-wide.
    TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242

    • Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

    I guess my question under the federal code would be if my rights were deprived; since i stood my ground and basically told him, "No, you can't deprive me of my rights" i don't know if i could pursue a federal offense.

    what's more likely and easily obtainable, is a misdemeanor Intimidation charge.

    IC 35-45-2-1
    Intimidation
    Sec. 1. (a) A person who communicates a threat to another person, with the intent:
    (1) that the other person engage in conduct against the other person's will;
    (2) that the other person be placed in fear of retaliation for a prior lawful act; or
    (3) of causing:
    (A) a dwelling, a building, or another structure; or
    (B) a vehicle;
    to be evacuated;
    commits intimidation, a Class A misdemeanor.
    (b) However, the offense is a:
    (1) Class D felony if:
    (A) the threat is to commit a forcible felony;
    (B) the person to whom the threat is communicated:
    (i) is a law enforcement officer;
    (ii) is a judge or bailiff of any court;
    (iii) is a witness (or the spouse or child of a witness) in any pending criminal proceeding against the person making the threat;
    (iv) is an employee of a school corporation;
    (v) is a community policing volunteer;
    (vi) is an employee of a court;
    (vii) is an employee of a probation department; or
    (viii) is an employee of a community corrections program.
    (C) the person has a prior unrelated conviction for an offense under this section concerning the same victim; or
    (D) the threat is communicated using property, including electronic equipment or systems, of a school corporation or other governmental entity; and
    (2) Class C felony if, while committing it, the person draws or uses a deadly weapon.
    (c) "Threat" means an expression, by words or action, of an intention to:
    (1) unlawfully injure the person threatened or another person, or damage property;
    (2) unlawfully subject a person to physical confinement or restraint;
    (3) commit a crime;
    (4) unlawfully withhold official action, or cause such withholding;
    (5) unlawfully withhold testimony or information with respect to another person's legal claim or defense, except for a reasonable claim for witness fees or expenses;
    [line]

    (6) expose the person threatened to hatred, contempt, disgrace, or ridicule;
    (7) falsely harm the credit or business reputation of the person threatened; or
    (8) cause the evacuation of a dwelling, a building, another structure, or a vehicle.
    As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.5. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.71; Acts 1981, P.L.300, SEC.3; P.L.183-1984, SEC.6; P.L.325-1985, SEC.1; P.L.242-1993, SEC.3; P.L.164-1993, SEC.12; P.L.1-1994, SEC.169; P.L.241-2001, SEC.3; P.L.175-2003, SEC.3; P.L.3-2006, SEC.2.

    and thanks to codename_47, i now have more confidence in pursuing legal action to affect lasting change

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    You should have drawn your cell phone and snapped a photo of the criminal.

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    ghengis86 wrote:
    aside from your general disdain for most everything in general, that was very helpful.




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    Can't express how satisfied I am right now!

    Just got a call back from the commander; he checked with the county prosecuter, who could find no information on concealment being requried, so he referred the commander to the legal adviser at the indiana state police, who handles firearms related issues. The legal adviser said that there is no requirement for citizens with permits to conceal. in the commander's own words,
    "You were right."


    He said that he talked to the detective and that they would be happy to sit down with me to talk about the incident in light of the recent knowledge that open carry is legal. On my inquiry, the commander said that
    "yes, the chief is aware of the issue and we'll make sure to let the department know. I even have an e-mail list to local departments that I can send this information so every body around here knows what's going on."

    when i inquired about how code changes are passed to officers, he said they have yearly training updates, but usually on the most pertinent code changes are reviewed. the firearm one must have not been important enough. And, in the greatest dose of irony yet, the detective that harrassed me is the training officer for all code changes for the department!!!! how rich!!

    so I told him that either tomorrow or friday, i'll stop by the department to have a quick meeting with the commander and the detective. I said we can make it as brief as possible with only an apology necessary by the detective and we can all put the incident behind us, water under the bridge.


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    ghengis86 wrote:
    Can't express how satisfied I am right now!

    Just got a call back from the commander; he checked with the county prosecuter, who could find no information on concealment being requried, so he referred the commander to the legal adviser at the indiana state police, who handles firearms related issues. The legal adviser said that there is no requirement for citizens with permits to conceal. in the commander's own words,
    "You were right."


    He said that he talked to the detective and that they would be happy to sit down with me to talk about the incident in light of the recent knowledge that open carry is legal. On my inquiry, the commander said that
    "yes, the chief is aware of the issue and we'll make sure to let the department know. I even have an e-mail list to local departments that I can send this information so every body around here knows what's going on."

    when i inquired about how code changes are passed to officers, he said they have yearly training updates, but usually on the most pertinent code changes are reviewed. the firearm one must have not been important enough. And, in the greatest dose of irony yet, the detective that harrassed me is the training officer for all code changes for the department!!!! how rich!!

    so I told him that either tomorrow or friday, i'll stop by the department to have a quick meeting with the commander and the detective. I said we can make it as brief as possible with only an apology necessary by the detective and we can all put the incident behind us, water under the bridge.

    Ensure that you point out the stupidity of the "I'll arrest you next time I see you", and the "I'll be waiting outside and I will arrest you" threats.


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    ghengis86 wrote:
    Got hasseled by a tax-parasite tonight at Meijers.A Det. Cpl. from Highland police told me I had to cover up my gun, to which i replied no. After a discussion, he got irate that someone didn't recognize his power, and threatened to arrest me the next time he saw me. When I asked for his name and badge, he got in my face and told me he would be waiting for me outside and would arrest me when i left the store. I left, and never saw him again. What a complete dick. I'm going to the Highland police department tomorrow to file a complaint. I'd like to talk to the chief first and try to come to an understanding that open carry is allowed in IN and his officers shouldn't be harassing people. If I have to be a dick and file a complaint, I will, but I don't really want to. I could also file some civil liberty lawsuit for being threatened, intimidated and harassed, but i have neither the time nor the money.

    Anybody else have issues with the Highland tax eaters not knowing the Indiana Code?
    Armchair quarterbacking here, I'm wondering what would happen if after he refused to give you his name and show his badge, you called 911 and told them someone was impersonating an officer, and trying to intimidate you....

    hmm.....

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    Interesting. I shop at that Meijer nearly every week. I usually have a light jacket or shirt over my gun though as I'm still getting used to open carry. I may try taking a step up next time I shop there.

    Kudos on how you're handling this, keeping your cool and all.

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    Just got this reply from the Chief in Highland asking if they had any specific statutes limiting open carry as I was going to be in the area soon! I also passed on the link to our web site!

    He stated:

    "We are aware of the law...there are no local statutes. Please refer to the Indiana State Police web site for further information as they regulate firearms permits. Thank you.Have a wonderful day!"

    Well chief if you are aware please make sure your officers aware!



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    Anderson, IN wrote:
    Just got this reply from the Chief in Highland asking if they had any specific statutes limiting open carry as I was going to be in the area soon! I also passed on the link to our web site!

    He stated:

    "We are aware of the law...there are no local statutes. Please refer to the Indiana State Police web site for further information as they regulate firearms permits. Thank you.Have a wonderful day!"

    Well chief if you are aware please make sure your officers aware!

    yeah, the commander told me the chief had gotten an e-mail from a 'concerned citizen'; I figured it was you! the commander said something to the affect of, "someone e-mailed the chief about this particular situation; i wonder how they heard about it..."

    I said, "hmm...interesting"

    I'm sure they'll be making their officers aware of this, and I can confirm this too; i have to close friends that are partol officers with the department. i haven't spoken to them about my incident yet, nor have i brought them up when talking about this with the commander. dont' want to blow the cover on my confidential informants!


    edit: well, it shouldn't take long until they find this thread. i guess my cover will be blown too...

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    and I'm going to be at the department at 3pm today to talk with the commander and detective. i'll post an update later tonight

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    just got back from the meeting; i don't have time for a full update right now, but it started off rough and ended up great. a real victory today.

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    ghengis86 wrote:
    just got back from the meeting; i don't have time for a full update right now, but it started off rough and ended up great. a real victory today.
    Sounds great! Keep us posted!:celebrate

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    Okay, here’s how it all went down.



    I met the commander and detective in the commander’s office and we sat down to go over what happened and the status of open carry in Indiana. The commander started off by saying again that I was completely in the right. I thanked him for researching this as thoroughly as he did and then I took a minute or two to just explain how poorly I thought the detective handled the situation. The det. was defensive and our discussion got a little heated (“I never threatened you with arrest” “You were yelling too”). He also said that if a cop sees a gun they have a right to ask for your permit. Again, I said yes, you can ask, but I don’t have to show you. I made the point that only if he has reasonable articulable suspicion that I was or am committing a crime could he compel me to show my permit. We went the copy of the IC 35-47-2 (since he insisted that it was in there) I brought with me, and the commander produced some law enforcement FAQ/guidelines that they were basing the “you have to show me your permit if I ask”. However, when we read the guidelines together, I made sure to clearly point out that it said that they may ask for your permit only if they feel you’ve been involved in an incident (RAS) or if they’re investigating a disturbance. I also made the point that they can’t stop every Mexican on the street and ask for a driver’s license, just because some may be illegal aliens.



    The commander then said that if I wish to file an official complaint that there is a procedure that he can explain and if I wish to file charges, there is another procedure to take. I said that I have no intention of dragging the detective through the mud and that I only brought up the relevant codes to underscore the seriousness of the incident.



    This is where the discussion became very productive.



    I explained to them that “we’re on the same team. I hate murderers, rapists, robbers and criminals just as much as you do. I take the law and the safety of my family very seriously. We have the same goals.” Etc. etc. etc. The detective said that they deal with scum all day, everyday and can understandably be on edge whenever they see a firearm. He said every call could be a life or death situation. I said I understood, but that as a citizen, I sometimes get the same feeling towards LE. I referenced the two Chicago cops that in the past two months, killed a couple people in separate drunk driving incidents as well as the BART subway murder (which they knew about), so I got some head nods in agreement and “True, that’s right”.



    He also said they never get good press, only bad press. “You could save 100 lives and only get a few lines in the paper, but one bad cop abuses a perp and it’s front page news”. I said I understand, but that conversely, there are tens of thousands of cases a year where citizens use firearms to stop a crime or protect their homes, but the media only reports the time where a guy goes crazy and shoots up a post office or school. Again, they nodded in agreement and said they understood that it goes both ways.



    The detective said that he meant no disrespect to me or my family and was sorry for the way things escalated and I said that I wasn’t out to get him or press charges and after we left the room, I would consider it water under the bridge. We shook hands and ended with a bit more respect for each other than when we entered, I’m guessing.



    There’s a lot more that we talked about that I left out here, but we discussed the 2A, other states carry laws, gary’s grandfather prohibition on carrying (passed before pre-emption) which they were somewhat surprised to learn, self protection, home defense, crime rising during recession/depressions, a local incident where a couple used a gun to stop a robbery, another local incident where the cops shot a man threatening them with an AK, and lots of other pertinent issues.



    All in all, it turned out better than I hoped and was a great opportunity to learn a few things, both for the LE and myself.



    Epilogue: The commander showed me an e-mail he sent to the entire department on open carrying and how it is permitted by those with a LTCH. I briefly spoke to the chief as well and he was very receptive and accommodating.

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    Good job!! :celebrate

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