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Thread: oc in "pistol free" zones

  1. #1
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    Is it correct that I, having my cpl, can oc in the parking lot of my son's publicschool to walk him to and from the bus? How about on the playground?


    eta:
    WOW, I didn't realize this was my FIRST post...I have been lurking for a while. I am Greg Wilson from West Michigan. I met, among others, Dougwg and I believe Venator at the Mike Cox Irish Party. If you saw the photos, I am the tall one in the back behind Mike and my wife is the short one next to Mike...Thanks in advance.

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    *I'm sure about this:*
    It's correct that with a CPL you may OC in the Michigan pistol free zones (MCL 750.234d, exception C). (Not all LEOs know this, so make sure to know the law and your rights.)

    *But I'm not so sure about this:*
    However, I'm not sure about schools (which are differentiated in Michigan law from colleges and universities) because I believe that that is prohibited by federal law, not state law.

    I can't cite anything for you, so I could be wrong. It would be best to wait for someone who knows more than me to respond, but hopefully you learned something new from my first sentence.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    And oh, welcome to OCDO! :celebrate
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    *But I'm not so sure about this:*
    However, I'm not sure about schools (which are differentiated in Michigan law from colleges and universities) because I believe that that is prohibited by federal law, not state law.
    This is how I understood it. I wasn't sure so I thought I would ask...

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    The way I understand it is that by state and federal law, OCing with a CPL in a criminal empowerment zone, more specifically a school, is perfectly legal, but a public school MAY have the right to impose academic sanctions if you're a student. However, if you're not a student, it's not exactly like the school can do much other than ask you to leave, and if it's public property, I don't know of a way that they could make you if you aren't violating any laws.

    When and if you're OCing in a criminal empowerment/victim dissarmament zone, make sure you're not using an IWB rig tucked halfway into your pants. Half exposed IWB rigs are some what of a grey area for being concealed or not.

    Not a lawyer, could be wrong, yada yada.
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    Michigander wrote:
    The way I understand it is that by state and federal law, OCing with a CPL in a criminal empowerment zone, more specifically a school, is perfectly legal, but a public school MAY have the right to impose academic sanctions if you're a student. However, if you're not a student, it's not exactly like the school can do much other than ask you to leave, and if it's public property, I don't know of a way that they could make you if you aren't violating any laws.

    When and if you're OCing in a criminal empowerment/victim dissarmament zone, make sure you're not using an IWB rig tucked halfway into your pants. Half exposed IWB rigs are some what of a grey area for being concealed or not.

    Not a lawyer, could be wrong, yada yada.
    Federal Law deals possession and does not mention CC or OC:
    Section ii (below) deals with the CPL. Basically w/ a CPL from Michigan, OC and CC on school on school property in Michigan or within 1,000 feet of the Michigan school, is not a violation of Federal Law. Also, I believe that if you have a MI License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol (also called a Purchase Permit), you would also meet the exemption. I understand that the MI State Police disagree, though.

    Code:
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone. 
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— 
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds; 
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify 
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is— 
    (I) not loaded; and 
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle; 
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; 
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the 
    individual or an employer of the individual; 
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or 
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.
    Michigan has their own version of the law. Section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as “school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.”
    The prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (CC is illegal: MCL 28.421 et seq, Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, Section 5o.)

    (see MI AG Granholm's Opinion, 7113, June 28, 2002)
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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

    I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...
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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

    I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...
    She might be referring to the idea that, "not all prosecutor's or police are on board with this.

    Jim Simmons over at MGO said that someone did get prosecuted for something along these lines, but it never made it past the lower court, so no precedent has been set.

    Since no precedence has been set, she might be suggesting that, "even though it's legal, doesn't mean that you won't have to defend yourself in court."

    The idea that IWB is concealed (and not OC) is absurd since it's pretty obvious that it's a gun, but we've come to know that that fact won't necessarily keep one out of court.

    There are some people who have OC'd in places listed in MCL 750.234d, and not had any problems.

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    DrTodd wrote: [quote](A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
    individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.[code]Michigan has their own version of the law. Section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as “school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.”
    The prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (CC is illegal: MCL 28.421 et seq, Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, Section 5o.)

    Keep in mind the federal exemption only applies to private property. Public property is still off limits.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    OC with a CPL at least appears to be quite powerful in Michigan - among the most permissive I've seen anywhere.

    This list doesn't apply:

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor;
    penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of
    1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that
    firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.



    And the CPL list of restrictions only applies to a concealed pistol - not an openly carried one (see also AG opinion below):

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection
    (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol...shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property ...
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
    the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises...
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
    concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.


    There would appear to be very little statutorily off-limits for OC with a CPL in MI (courtrooms/court offices, national parks/lakeshores/refuges until Feb., certain state universities if you believe their position that preemption is inapplicable to them).

    AG Opinion 7113 appears to lay this out pretty explicitly: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm

    That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.


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    burgundyyears wrote:
    That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.
    It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

    As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.
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    Michigander wrote:
    burgundyyears wrote:
    That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.
    It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

    As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.
    I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    burgundyyears wrote:
    That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.
    It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

    As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.
    I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.
    Employees would likely find themselves in trouble too.

    That being said, it would be interesting to see preemption tested against the state-chartered Universities in an OC with a CPL situation where the only thing that can back them up is their own ordinance against a non-affiliated visitor. Even the penalty UofM uses for weapons possession is pretty much a slap on the wrist: $50 fine and/or 10-60 days misdemeanor - meant to intimidate the law-abiding but pretty minor when you compare it with state penalties for illegal possession or CCW. The on-campus Art Fair is practically begging for an OC event. I'm in town and could probably take a day off work to document. :P

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    burgundyyears wrote:
    I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.

    Employees would likely find themselves in trouble too.

    That being said, it would be interesting to see preemption tested against the state-chartered Universities in an OC with a CPL situation where the only thing that can back them up is their own ordinance against a non-affiliated visitor. Even the penalty UofM uses for weapons possession is pretty much a slap on the wrist: $50 fine and/or 10-60 days misdemeanor - meant to intimidate the law-abiding but pretty minor when you compare it with state penalties for illegal possession or CCW. The on-campus Art Fair is practically begging for an OC event. I'm in town and could probably take a day off work to document. :P


    See this thread for art fair OCing.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25825.html
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

    I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...
    I was given the same panic senario,but with an old lady, in 85' when I phoned the Monroe, Wayne and Washtenaw county sheriff's offices asking if OCing was legal. I did this after recieving my FFL and national,state library of firearm laws in order to legaly do my business. But I was told that the responding officer's would show up with guns drawn! That would cause a panic for the carrier and showed at that time they didn't want people to exercise their right to OC!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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    So, basically, it is probably legal to oc with a cpl in a school zone but it could and most likely would cause problems...I cannot at this time afford to be a trend setter in my area. I'd much rather cc than oc but was willing to make the compromise if it didn't attract too much scrutiny by the local men in blue. A personal preference... Thak you all for the responses. Keep on keeping on...

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    Greg_W wrote:
    So, basically, it is probably legal to oc with a cpl in a school zone but it could and most likely would cause problems...I cannot at this time afford to be a trend setter in my area. I'd much rather cc than oc but was willing to make the compromise if it didn't attract too much scrutiny by the local men in blue. A personal preference... Thak you all for the responses. Keep on keeping on...
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    I assume that these rules apply 24/7 ? Doesn't matter if schools in session or not? Question came up this past weekend for me. I was up north and the family wanted to go to a craft show that was held on school property. Part was outside and included adjacent public property, and a portion of it was inside the school in the gym.




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    Jblack44 wrote:
    I assume that these rules apply 24/7 ? Doesn't matter if schools in session or not? Question came up this past weekend for me. I was up north and the family wanted to go to a craft show that was held on school property. Part was outside and included adjacent public property, and a portion of it was inside the school in the gym.*
    There is no exception for time of day, or other activities held where the general public is allowed, so yes, it's 24/7.

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    meaning OC with a CPL would be legal.
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    Jblack44 wrote:
    meaning OC with a CPL would be legal.
    EDIT:

    A little bit of digging in MCL reveals that School districts are not, in fact, local units of government, and are instead subunits of state government, overseen by the Dept. of Education.

    As such, they have these general powers, per MCL 380.11a:

    (3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

    (a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

    (b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

    (c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

    (d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

    (e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.
    So it would seem that a school district could ban all firearms under the guise that it would be for the protection of pupils, but it doesn't provide for punishment if one were to violate a supposed mandate.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Actually, school districts are distinct from the state government, just as cities, counties, and townships are. Yes, the actual policies of a school district are under the direction of the Dept. of Education, but they still are a distinct corporate body. However, zigzigittyzoo is correct in that state firearms law does not preempt local school districts; the state preemption act lists what is meant by "local units of government" and, schools are not on the list.

    The best course of action is to check the local districts' website for the board rules which may impact a cpl holder. As I look at potential employers (I am always looking for greener pastures) I almost always check their board policy regarding firearms. In my research I've seen one of three policies concerning firearms: 1) no firearms allowed on school property (except leo), 2) no firearms for employees and no firearms for anyone else, but those carrying under the lawful authority as leo or a cpl holder may carry as long as they follow the law concerning the respective exemptions, or 3) no mention of firearms. I am lucky, as the board with whom I am currently employed makes no mention of firearms. I have applied to districts in the past that have prohibited employee possession of firearms on the premises (no mention of cpl exemption) and have, in fact, turned down an offer from such a district for that reason.
    My suggestion is to look up the board rules and make note of them. That way, you will be aware of what actually is allowed (state law, of course, is the "default' policy for all schools.)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Actually, school districts are distinct from the state government, just as cities, counties, and townships are.* Yes, the actual policies of a school district are under the direction of the Dept. of Education, but they still are a distinct corporate body.* However, zigzigittyzoo is correct in that state firearms law does not preempt local school districts; the state preemption act lists what is meant by "local units of government" and, schools are not on the list.

    The best course of action is to check the local districts' website for the board rules which may impact a cpl holder.* As I look at potential employers (I am always looking for greener pastures) I almost always check their board policy regarding firearms.* In my research I've seen one of three policies concerning firearms: 1) no firearms allowed on school property (except leo), 2) no firearms for employees and no firearms for anyone else, but those carrying under the lawful authority as leo or a cpl holder may carry as long as they follow the law concerning the respective exemptions, or 3) no mention of firearms.* I am lucky, as the board with whom I am currently employed makes no mention of firearms.* I have applied to districts in the past that have prohibited employee possession of firearms on the premises (no mention of cpl exemption) and have, in fact, turned down an offer from such a district for that reason.
    My suggestion is to look up the board rules and make note of them.* That way, you will be aware of what actually is allowed (state law, of course, is the "default' policy for all schools.)
    It's really hard to find these without having to ask specifically, which usually gives you a generic "No." response.

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