oc in "pistol free" zones

Greg_W · May 22, 2009

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Is it correct that I, having my cpl, can oc in the parking lot of my son's publicschool to walk him to and from the bus? How about on the playground?

eta:
WOW, I didn't realize this was my FIRST post...I have been lurking for a while. I am Greg Wilson from West Michigan. I met, among others, Dougwg and I believe Venator at the Mike Cox Irish Party. If you saw the photos, I am the tall one in the back behind Mike and my wife is the short one next to Mike...Thanks in advance.

EM87 · May 22, 2009

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*I'm sure about this:*
It's correct that with a CPL you may OC in the Michigan pistol free zones (MCL 750.234d, exception C). (Not all LEOs know this, so make sure to know the law and your rights.)

*But I'm not so sure about this:*
However, I'm not sure about schools (which are differentiated in Michigan law from colleges and universities) because I believe that that is prohibited by federal law, not state law.

I can't cite anything for you, so I could be wrong. It would be best to wait for someone who knows more than me to respond, but hopefully you learned something new from my first sentence.

EM87 · May 22, 2009

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And oh, welcome to OCDO! :celebrate

Greg_W · May 22, 2009

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EM87 wrote:

*But I'm not so sure about this:*
However, I'm not sure about schools (which are differentiated in Michigan law from colleges and universities) because I believe that that is prohibited by federal law, not state law.

This is how I understood it. I wasn't sure so I thought I would ask...

Michigander · May 22, 2009

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The way I understand it is that by state and federal law, OCing with a CPL in a criminal empowerment zone, more specifically a school, is perfectly legal, but a public school MAY have the right to impose academic sanctions if you're a student. However, if you're not a student, it's not exactly like the school can do much other than ask you to leave, and if it's public property, I don't know of a way that they could make you if you aren't violating any laws.

When and if you're OCing in a criminal empowerment/victim dissarmament zone, make sure you're not using an IWB rig tucked halfway into your pants. Half exposed IWB rigs are some what of a grey area for being concealed or not.

Not a lawyer, could be wrong, yada yada.

DrTodd · May 22, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

The way I understand it is that by state and federal law, OCing with a CPL in a criminal empowerment zone, more specifically a school, is perfectly legal, but a public school MAY have the right to impose academic sanctions if you're a student. However, if you're not a student, it's not exactly like the school can do much other than ask you to leave, and if it's public property, I don't know of a way that they could make you if you aren't violating any laws.

When and if you're OCing in a criminal empowerment/victim dissarmament zone, make sure you're not using an IWB rig tucked halfway into your pants. Half exposed IWB rigs are some what of a grey area for being concealed or not.

Not a lawyer, could be wrong, yada yada.

Federal Law deals possession and does not mention CC or OC:
Section ii (below) deals with the CPL. Basically w/ a CPL from Michigan, OC and CC on school on school property in Michigan or within 1,000 feet of the Michigan school, is not a violation of Federal Law. Also, I believe that if you have a MI License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol (also called a Purchase Permit), you would also meet the exemption. I understand that the MI State Police disagree, though.

Code:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone. 
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— 
(i) on private property not part of school grounds; 
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify 
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is— 
(I) not loaded; and 
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle; 
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; 
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the 
individual or an employer of the individual; 
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or 
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

Michigan has their own version of the law. Section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as “school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.”
The prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (CC is illegal: MCL 28.421 et seq, Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, Section 5o.)

(see MI AG Granholm's Opinion, 7113, June 28, 2002)

Springfield Smitty · May 22, 2009

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I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...

ghostrider · May 23, 2009

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...

She might be referring to the idea that, "not all prosecutor's or police are on board with this.

Jim Simmons over at MGO said that someone did get prosecuted for something along these lines, but it never made it past the lower court, so no precedent has been set.

Since no precedence has been set, she might be suggesting that, "even though it's legal, doesn't mean that you won't have to defend yourself in court."

The idea that IWB is concealed (and not OC) is absurd since it's pretty obvious that it's a gun, but we've come to know that that fact won't necessarily keep one out of court.

There are some people who have OC'd in places listed in MCL 750.234d, and not had any problems.

Venator · May 23, 2009

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DrTodd wrote:

Code:
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

Code:

Michigan has their own version of the law. Section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as “school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.” The prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (CC is illegal: MCL 28.421 et seq, Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, Section 5o.) Keep in mind the federal exemption only applies to private property. Public property is still off limits.

burgundyyears · May 23, 2009

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OC with a CPL at least appears to be quite powerful in Michigan - among the most permissive I've seen anywhere.

This list doesn't apply:

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor;
penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of
1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that
firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

And the CPL list of restrictions only applies to a concealed pistol - not an openly carried one (see also AG opinion below):

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection
(1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol...shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property ...
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises...
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

There would appear to be very little statutorily off-limits for OC with a CPL in MI (courtrooms/court offices, national parks/lakeshores/refuges until Feb., certain state universities if you believe their position that preemption is inapplicable to them).

AG Opinion 7113 appears to lay this out pretty explicitly: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.

Michigander · May 23, 2009

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burgundyyears wrote:

That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.

It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.

DrTodd · May 23, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

burgundyyears wrote:

That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.

Click to expand...

It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.

I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.

burgundyyears · May 23, 2009

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DrTodd wrote:

Michigander wrote:

burgundyyears wrote:

That being said, I'm sure that OC with a CPL in a school is going to turn some heads.

Click to expand...

It badly needs to be done in a state level college.

As a matter of fact, one good option would be to have a CPL holder OC meet at U of M, Wayne State, or MSU. Others that wanted to come could wear empty holsters or just show up with recording devices.

Click to expand...

I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.

Employees would likely find themselves in trouble too.

That being said, it would be interesting to see preemption tested against the state-chartered Universities in an OC with a CPL situation where the only thing that can back them up is their own ordinance against a non-affiliated visitor. Even the penalty UofM uses for weapons possession is pretty much a slap on the wrist: $50 fine and/or 10-60 days misdemeanor - meant to intimidate the law-abiding but pretty minor when you compare it with state penalties for illegal possession or CCW. The on-campus Art Fair is practically begging for an OC event. I'm in town and could probably take a day off work to document.

Venator · May 23, 2009

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burgundyyears wrote:

I don't think much would happen. An arrest would force the issue to be decided, something I don't think any of the universities really want. A student probably would have problems, though.

Employees would likely find themselves in trouble too.

That being said, it would be interesting to see preemption tested against the state-chartered Universities in an OC with a CPL situation where the only thing that can back them up is their own ordinance against a non-affiliated visitor. Even the penalty UofM uses for weapons possession is pretty much a slap on the wrist: $50 fine and/or 10-60 days misdemeanor - meant to intimidate the law-abiding but pretty minor when you compare it with state penalties for illegal possession or CCW. The on-campus Art Fair is practically begging for an OC event. I'm in town and could probably take a day off work to document.

See this thread for art fair OCing.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25825.html

Haman J.T. · May 24, 2009

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

I spoke with Sgt. Pearce at the MSP post in Manistee and she stated that it is legal to carry in this manner, but that it is not advised - whatever that may mean...

I imagine that she is inferring that panic may insue and police may be en route to your location in a very timely manner...

I was given the same panic senario,but with an old lady, in 85' when I phoned the Monroe, Wayne and Washtenaw county sheriff's offices asking if OCing was legal. I did this after recieving my FFL and national,state library of firearm laws in order to legaly do my business. But I was told that the responding officer's would show up with guns drawn! That would cause a panic for the carrier and showed at that time they didn't want people to exercise their right to OC!

Greg_W · May 25, 2009

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So, basically, it is probably legal to oc with a cpl in a school zone but it could and most likely would cause problems...I cannot at this time afford to be a trend setter in my area. I'd much rather cc than oc but was willing to make the compromise if it didn't attract too much scrutiny by the local men in blue. A personal preference... Thak you all for the responses. Keep on keeping on...

SpringerXDacp · May 25, 2009

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Greg_W wrote:

So, basically, it is probably legal to oc with a cpl in a school zone but it could and most likely would cause problems...I cannot at this time afford to be a trend setter in my area. I'd much rather cc than oc but was willing to make the compromise if it didn't attract too much scrutiny by the local men in blue. A personal preference... Thak you all for the responses. Keep on keeping on...

Welcome to OCDO Greg. Please add your location: Go to My Account and then to Profile.

Jblack44 · May 26, 2009

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I assume that these rules apply 24/7 ? Doesn't matter if schools in session or not? Question came up this past weekend for me. I was up north and the family wanted to go to a craft show that was held on school property. Part was outside and included adjacent public property, and a portion of it was inside the school in the gym.

zigziggityzoo · May 26, 2009

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Jblack44 wrote:

I assume that these rules apply 24/7 ? Doesn't matter if schools in session or not? Question came up this past weekend for me. I was up north and the family wanted to go to a craft show that was held on school property. Part was outside and included adjacent public property, and a portion of it was inside the school in the gym.

There is no exception for time of day, or other activities held where the general public is allowed, so yes, it's 24/7.

Jblack44 · May 26, 2009

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meaning OC with a CPL would be legal.

oc in "pistol free" zones

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