Are we just looking for trouble by open carrying?

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OC-Glock19 wrote:

reconvic wrote:

This is my personal opinion only from what I have seen on and off duty.
This country is full with soccer mom's and they see a weapon and they fear guns and in some states a CCW person will not get hassled by P.D. when a
Person showing can get reported and will have the P.D . Come out to check them out if called by a soccer mom. Which happens more then you think.
I personally carry concealed cocked and locked. I feel it is the State in which you live in matters more. In AZ. Open carry is legal yet people do get profiled.
S/F Vic

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That's one of the reasons that I open carry, is to educate people and get them acclimated to the fact that it's not just cops and bad guys that have guns.  I usually carry a dark gun in a dark holster against dark clothing, so the gun is usually not the first thing that people notice when they see me. 

I usually greet people with a smile and small talk, and it's usually after they're disarmed (so to speak) that they notice that I'm carrying a gun, at which point they're more curious than concerned. 

I understand that people are profiled all the time, and if they're carrying a gun openly that factors greatly into the profiler's judgment of them, but if nothing else about the open carrier is threatening then no further action is taken.

I have friends who are into body modifications who would like to open carry but are afraid to because they know that they will be judged unfairly on their appearance.  They are very aware that their physical appearance is intimidating to some, and they don't want to compound the negativity by carrying openly. 

I carry openly now to help these people in the future, when open carry WILL be more accepted.

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I would rather open carry then conceal, I like your points very much.
Yet we will be fighting the anti gun people for many a year I fear.
Just my 2 cents
S/F Vic

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I think OC is great. It is a shame I have to go to another state to excersize such a basic right.

Was OCing with a friend just over the line in PA yesterday, to show him that people generally won't notice or care. NowI WAS wearing black pants, a black t-shirt ( with a jaguar or leopard on the front and back), and black gun in black holster and was sort of sheilding my strong side with my dangling arm. BUT when I went to pay at the counter, anyone there could have seen what I was wearing on my waist was a gun. My friend did ask about the "why?" of open carry, so I told him that it is educational and lets people see gun owners are mostly all just regular people and not dangerous. He noted the obvious than many people probably mistake OCers as some sort of plain clothes cops, and I think this may be totally true. If you are dressed in a non sloppy manner, and your hair isn't all greasy, you don't stink like a bear, and you walk normally and carry yourself as a responsible person, the public are not as likley to even begin to get the heebeejeebies if they see you have a gun on your hip. Now if you look like a homeless slob, haven't bathed all week, and walk all creeping and nervous, yeah folks are going to notice and may get alarmed.

My friend and I both agreed that open carry to just show off and to look like an asshole is attention whoring and is a negative thing to do, but fancy holsters and custom guns by themselves do make one an attention whore. Stupid asshole behavior is what makes an attention whore.

As to people with tats and peircings or who dress in biker attire and whatnot- again, how do you carry yourself? Behavior is the most important aspect here. I've been to OC gatherings with people who have a bunch of tats and/or have that biker look, and no one cared enough to be a sheeple and call the police on them. I saw 2 really nice tats at one lunch- a very well done Glock and a beautiful AK.

The issue of criminals and the CC vs OC debate: I think OC is better. No one has been able to find any verifiable report of anynon LEOOCer being "targeted first" or having a gun grab attempt occur. Most criminals are stupid and are cowards, and even many of the "crazy" ones will know to back off if they see the gun on the hip. More and more I read of OCers here and at PAFOA saying that some suspicious acting person or persons were hanging around, then spotted the OCer and decided that hanging out elseware might be a fine idea. I'd rather keep some criminal jerk away from me outright, then to allow them into my comfort zone starting their criminal activity and then having to draw on them and possibly have to shoot them. I choose simple deterance over an incident and PTSD and the legal crap going on for months.

I know darn well if I was on a walking trail in an isolated part of the trail system, by myself, and notice the only other person around is some creepy man seemingly stalking up on me ( his eye contact and other body language clues that send the alarm bells off), that I'd rather I show him my strong side and look right back into his eyes ( with my wonderful" you die! look"), have him do the sudden screeching stop, give the "oh shit" look and decide to turn and walk away from me, then to have him get into my comfort zone and start running at me, and to try to quick draw on him from concealed carryand yell STOP, and maybe have to shoot him. I'm not much for 911 calls, police reports, lawyers, meetings with DA's, possible law suits by dead perps relatives ( PA and MD both do not have civil immunity), having to take a higher dose of sertraline and generic xanax daily, and etc. Hell I just want to be ******* left alone.

Now in the case of the above scenereo with OC, I would be responsible enough to contact the local LEOs to report that a strange acting man who may be a rapist or worst was on the trail, butI scared him off. I'd hate to scare someone like that off, only to have him later attack another woman. And yes the area of PA I am using for this scene has LEO's that would actually listen to such a report and perhaps a park ranger would do some active patrolling of that section of trail. Best would be if half the trail users just OC'd, but you know how the general public is.

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40s-and-wfan wrote:

You know, I gotta laugh when I read posts of others who are opposed to OC when they're a member of a site here that promotes Open Carry. I personally don't have a problem with Open Carry just like I don't have a problem with Concealed Carry either. I don't have a problem with anyone who lawfully and legally carries a gun for protection.

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Actually, I like having both the opposition and the neutral on any subject on the site. If the only reading here was each of us simply scratching one another's backs, then it would get awefully boring after a while.

The difference of opinion promotes reasoned debate, and unlike the vast majority of folks positions on topics like abortion and same-sex marriage, I think there is room for minds to be changed on gun control.

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OK folks let's not head off down the abortion and SS Marriage roads. Plenty of other forums for those topics.

Concerning the original title of this thread "Are we just looking for trouble by OC?"

Now the CC'ers normally claim the "element of surprise" affect of CC. OC'ers argue the "deterant" factor. Now, I've been ging this some thought lately and it seems to me that there may be some grounds for argument that the CC'ers are the ones looking for trouble. (I'm not saying that they are, but......)

Concider this. If OC really IS a deterant to a possible assault, and CC is the re-actionary "surprise"against an assault that has already been initiated, doesn't that sound like entrapment? WE know that 60% of criminals are less likely to attack a person that is obviously armed, so OC should prevent an assault from taken place at all. But if you are CC'ing the criminal doesn't know if you are armed or not, until after he's initiated his attack, it's almost like baiting the criminal to carry out an assault so you can surprise them.40% of criminals said they were less likely to attack if they thinka targetmight be armed.

So who's really looking for trouble, OC or CC?

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Task Force 16 wrote:

Now the CC'ers normally claim the "element of surprise" affect of CC. OC'ers argue the "deterant" factor.

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'Element of 'Surprise' is an assault tactic... not a defensive one. Down side... the perp's already got a weapon in hand or is closing. Where's the surprise? You must then react to that. Often as not... something has to be unbuttoned, pulled back/up/off etc. Whatever... 'reacting' is no surprise. I s'pose people play out all sorts of imaginary situations and scenarios in their head. Some have visions of grandious derring-do(Handcuffs, flashlights, 'n whatever else they can festoon themselves with. Having been a cop...I just shake my head in dismay/disgust. The people who usually do that are noobs... 'n carrying a firearm openly is a novelty. 'Reminds me of some novice hikers 'n campers with all the junk they hang on themselves.

Not so w/OC. It's 'there'. It's obvious... it's readily accessable. Simply knowing that is a deterrent to the above behavior on the part of the perp. Nothing is 100% Nothing ever will be. CCW instructors push CCW because it's in their financial interests to do so. I have an AZ CWP... for those rare times it should be covered (rain... 'some social functions requiring a coat). It's also easier to buy any other firearm. No 4473's to futz with.

Some people harbor a 'Secret Sam' personna. (Then they'll want'a get a badge that proclaims they're a Concealed Carrier.) 'Never have figured that one out. Some sort of vicarious 'authority' complex. Some are socially antsy about what 'people will say'. They feel it draws attention to themselves. Realistically... some people look like a putz carryin' a gun openly. (But then... they'll still look like a putz no matter what.) Sadly... many Americans have gotten fat 'n sloppy... and they dress that way. Others don't want any hassles from the law. THAT is the only reasonable reason to CC... other than OC is 'forbidden'.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

Now the CC'ers normally claim the "element of surprise" affect of CC. OC'ers argue the "deterant" factor.

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'Element of 'Surprise' is an assault tactic... not a defensive one.  Down side... the perp's already got a weapon in hand or is closing.  Where's the surprise?  You must then react to that.  Often as not... something has to be unbuttoned, pulled back/up/off etc.  Whatever... 'reacting' is no surprise.  I s'pose people play out all sorts of imaginary situations and scenarios in their head. Some have visions of grandious derring-do (Handcuffs, flashlights, 'n whatever else they can festoon themselves with. Having been a cop... I just shake my head in dismay/disgust.  The people who usually do that are noobs... 'n carrying a firearm openly is a novelty.  'Reminds me of some novice hikers 'n campers with all the junk they hang on themselves.

Not so w/OC. It's 'there'.  It's obvious... it's readily accessible.  Simply knowing that is a deterrent to the above behavior on the part of the perp.  Nothing is 100%  Nothing ever will be.  CCW instructors push CCW because it's in their financial interests to do so.  I have an AZ CWP... for those rare times it should be covered (rain... 'some social functions requiring a coat).  It's also easier to buy any other firearm.  No 4473's to futz with.

Some people harbor a 'Secret Sam' personna. (Then they'll want'a get a badge that proclaims they're a Concealed Carrier.)  'Never have figured that one out. Some sort of vicarious 'authority' complex. Some are socially antsy about what 'people will say'.  They feel it draws attention to themselves.  Realistically... some people look like a putz carryin' a gun openly.  (But then... they'll still look like a putz no matter what.)  Sadly... many Americans have gotten fat 'n sloppy... and they dress that way.  Others don't want any hassles from the law.  THAT is the only reasonable reason to CC... other than OC is 'forbidden'.

 

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Rebel I love the post you wrote and are right, but remember the perp has his eyes looking at many people, you are focused on the one with a weapon
OC is more of a deterrent in the right hands , with guns comes responsibility, and training. I would advise IDPA to those that carry any style weapon. I was train by the Marines and done 2 tours also in the Nam. I got out and got a CCW right away. I carry both ways , it depends on skills levels and the ability to actually pull the trigger when you draw your weapon.

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reconvic wrote:

"...it depends on skills levels and the ability to actually pull the trigger when you draw your weapon.

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Therein lies the rub. You and I have 'pulled' on people. 'Really doesn't matter what you can do punchin' holes in paper or tincans. 'Shootin' people is a whole 'nuther world. What was that movie line... ? "'You gonnapull them pistols or whistle Dixie"?

You can never be fully prepared. Unlike combat, you're not expecting 'it' and from what direction. You don't know what form the threat will take. Gettin' blindsided is easy. I'm usually Condition Yellow... but ya get preoccupied with 'doin' stuff'. It's those times when you least expect it... 'Whoops... there it is!" OK... what to do? You may have to make an instant decision to snuff somebody. Can you? Better yet... will you? You're not gonna have 'time' to mull it over.

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Rebel most feel pulling the trigger on a human is easy, we been there done that it is NOT. Yet when the decision is made those that hesitate meditate horizontal forever. First look for a barricade, then draw and fire if it is indeed a threat to you or a loved one ONLY. Reaction and practice IDPA is the closest one can come to real life , though IDPA has flaws in it, it gives you a better edge then nothing.
S/F Vic

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I practice with a Walther BB pistol. My range varies from 6'-20'. I shoot one handed and while moving. I point or hip shoot. I pull and shoot sideways while sitting. I do this in daylight or no light. (Dark out here)

I walk away... turn and fire. 'Crouch turnand fire... Shoot offhand and left hand. I figure if I'm gonna do the 'Weaver Stance' and 'aim'... I'm already dead or shot someplace. Not every hit is a 'kill'... but it's a hit. Hits knock people down... disable them... Gettin' shot hurts. Hurt people forget what they came there for.Downed people make better targets for a dubble-tap... or an Irish six-pack.

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Rebel I see we had very similar training, After the Corps I work for the DOD.
I have been shot and stabbed myself but the other perp is not anymore.
I now consider myself a sport shooter but I always carry a .45 with one in the hole. I hope no-one ever has to pull that trigger on anyone but I stay in condition 2-3 at all times and the best advise I can give is be very aware of your surroundings and listen to your gut feelings.I practice with what i shoot
with a .45.
S/F Vic

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I carry a .45 as well... with one in the pipe... but the neighbors (such as they are) would complain about the gunfire. My point of practice is 'look-shoot-hit'. Recoil control don't matter 'cause the round is down-range at that point anyway. Besides... BB's are a lot cheaper (and more available) than .45acp.

I was Navy... an Ordie. Now 'n then the unit armorer. I got to play with everybody's toys. 'Wish I had an M63A1 (Wouldn't everybody?)

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"Yet when the decision is made those that hesitate meditate horizontal forever"

"best advise I can give is be very aware of your surroundings and listen to your gut feelings"

"You can never be fully prepared. Unlike combat, you're not expecting 'it' and from what direction. You don't know what form the threat will take. Gettin' blindsided is easy"


Both of you gentlemen, Sonora Rebel and reconvic, are dead on the money, and I would like to thank you for your "to the point" postings. There are two things which can be disastrous to a GG. The initial "Oh my God, is this really happening" reaction and hesitation to act with positive force. This is normal with good people because they just do not wish to see people hurt. That and the fact that suddenly reality is smack dab in front of them and there just isn't time to second guess. Perhaps this is the hardest thing to teach and condition in people because it is basic human nature with most in our society.

Anyway, thanks again to the both of you for sharing your experiences.

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I thank you and sure Rebel does too, we just want all to be safe and know shooting steel or paper don't shoot back. I have been in Combat in and out of the Military, sharing ones lessons learned is why we all are here. No thanks needed.
S/F Vic

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reconvic wrote:

I thank you and sure Rebel does too, we just want all to be safe and know shooting steel or paper don't shoot back. I have been in Combat in and out of the Military, sharing ones lessons learned is why we all are here. No thanks needed.
S/F Vic

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Well then let add one more thing.

Thank you sir, for your service to our nation and your steadfast position on its principles.

And I should add that my sentiments expressed here go out to others on this forum who have given of their time, selves, and safety to see the rest of us through our own lives. Perhaps one of my favorite quotes comes from someone of whom I know not.

"They gave up all of their tomorrows, that you might have today."

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As someone posted already, OC is pro-active not reactive like CC. You can obviously see changes in otherwise thuggish and confrontational types in public, not all but most. I hate the feeling that I may be intimidating my fellow citizens, but trouble seems to just not exist or quickly subside when I OC. Even intoxicated people that may be acting, well... intoxicated, seem to just cease when a responsible and non aggressive armed citizen is just present. These have been my observations atleast.

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Yeah the only trouble comes from those who protect and serve but feel that only they should be allowed to carry a gun because apparently a badge makes them better than any other civilian.

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Yeah the only trouble comes from those who protect and serve but feel that only they should be allowed to carry a gun because apparently a badge makes them better than any other civilian.

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As in any job they are good LEO's and ones that are cocky, when dealing with firearms (mostly rookies) do think they believe that. At the range it is sad how many LEO are actually bad shots. I help at Caswels Shooting club as a range officer and have to grade them and I do it as I would any other person the badge means nothing to me. If they like shooting as a sport which most don't
They shoot poorly and at times I have made them leave the range till they cool down before them yelling at me,saying it was almost there.
S/F Vic

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Yeah the only trouble comes from those who protect and serve but feel that only they should be allowed to carry a gun because apparently a badge makes them better than any other civilian.

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Yeah, it's funny. Think of this.

LEOs carry as a function of their job which makes it a privilege and not a right much like an electrician who carries a tool belt pack. When they carry while in civilian mode, they are doing so as part of their rights. However, even then their privilege exceeds their natural right to carry.

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reconvic wrote:

FunkTrooper wrote:

Yeah the only trouble comes from those who protect and serve but feel that only they should be allowed to carry a gun because apparently a badge makes them better than any other civilian.

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As in any job they are good LEO's and ones that are cocky, when dealing with firearms (mostly rookies) do think they believe that. At the range it is sad how many LEO are actually bad shots. I help at Caswels Shooting club as a range officer and have to grade them and I do it as I would any other person the badge means nothing to me. If they like shooting as a sport which most don't
They shoot poorly and at times I have made them leave the range till they cool down before them yelling at me,saying it was almost there.
S/F Vic

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Depending upon the State... and level of prior experience in firearms (much less carrying one)... LEO's are no better... and often worse than 'Joe Sixpack'. Those with prior military (especially the trigger pullers of various degrees) have a different mindset. For many rookies tho...bearing armsis a novelty.

In those areas where the 2A is 'infringed' (or has been) , theyare imbued with an attitude of special empowerment beyond the badge. Sometimes this is a result of their 'Academy' training or level of training. Many instructors havethe same endemic mindset that is pre-existing within their Department. Many Police Chiefs and Sheriff's do as well. They are a product of the same.

It's the: "I have authority... therefore I am specially empowered to be armed." 'Civilians' have no such authority, therefore they cannot be so empowered.' What they fail to realize, understand is that bearing arms (for civilians)is not about empowerment. It's about the Right to self defense. They also fail to realize that... not being military, they too are 'civilians'. They are 'civil authority'. That sidearm they are issued isfor their own self defense as well. They may have need of it more often than 'Joe Sixpack' due to the nature of the job, but the purpose is the same. The Right of self defense under the 2A is the same.Otherwise... they'd carry billy clubs like the British do, or short swords (Spatha's) like the Italian Caribineri. (Altho I think the Italians now arm their police...)

Seeing 'Joe Sixpack' armed is often viewed as a threat. This is no different than the emotional responses many of us have encountered from the 'sheep'. 'You have a gun... therefore you must be up to no good.' "GUN = THREAT" This is a regional cultural more' created by generations of institutionalized BS firearms fear mongering and demonization. These regional more'shave created a culture ofhoplophobes.They're inculcated to that response. I say this as a former cop who wasborn and livedin that sort of culture. (Fortunately... I never adopted those social more's. My 'story' was formed elsewhere.)

I went thru the Academy (after 14 1/2years military including boots on the ground in 'Nam.) I was abouta year and a half out of 'Nam and 6 months out of the military when I did this. Most of the 'recruits' were poor shots. Manyhad never fired ahandgun... or any gun beyond the Amusement Park shootin' gallery types. Those who were prior military were immediately obvious. Not that some military never shoot anything beyond basic training... but in this instance there were no 'clerks and cooks'. We passed easily... but some had trouble.

About a year later... I went thru some in-service training (Voluntarily) on the handgun course. The 'score' was 200 rounds, 1/2 pointper shot. Perfect score was 100. There were about55 cops shooting. The weapon was aS&W Model 10 .38spl. We were firing reloaded 'target' flat nosedjunk ammo of unknown grains. Targets were man sized... at ranges of from 6' to 60 yrds standing, kneeling, prone and barracade (left and right hand). Only 2 of us scored 100. Both of us were prior military. The other guy had a split casing... I heard it when he pulled the trigger 'n so did the instructor. His bullet hit thedirt in front of the target at 60 yrds prone. The instructor gave him another round after extracting the 'dud' and he drilled the target with that one.At 60 yards... ya had to use Kentucky windage and lob 'em in. I had my aim about a foot over the targets head which would hit 'em in thecenter. If you aimed center... you'd hit dirt. If you aimed 'head'... you'd be off-paper. How'd I figure that out?I watched people shoot 'n saw where their rounds were going before I opened up. I still have the 'attaboy' letter from thePolice Commissioner on my score. That was unexpected. We went on thru shotgun, M-1 carbine, AR-15 and smoke/CS. I was left shakin' my head at how manynoses, cheeks, jaws'nfingers got whacked while firing the shotguns.

In my Department... cops did not practice. It wasn't mandatory or even scheduled IST. Some never cleaned their weapons (at all). Weapon dissassembly was forbidden other than by a Departmernt 'armory'. I violated that rule with regularity. A .38 ain't all that complicated. Some never unloaded their weapons... (FOR YEARS).The housecats especially. 'Had a 'detective' get killed because his weapon failed to fire and the perp lit him up. He was using a S&W Mod 36 snubbie. The ammo had been in it so long the primers had swelled and the verdigris build up had jammed all 5 rounds in the cylinder. He couldn't have even reloaded. The swing arm on the cylinder was rusted.

I never could get past the stupidity and politics of it all... so in '78 I re-enlisted (same pay grade but lost seniority) and finished up 6 years to retirement on 20. I NEVER should'a got out in the first place.


As for the 'attaboys' regarding military combat service. None required. I was a volunteer... my call. "It's what I do"... or did at the time. They do give ya some nice toys tho... 'Can't do that anyplace else.

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Well, said Rebel, I went in the Corps at 17 also a volunteer, and they could not send me to the NAM till I was 18. First tour I was 0341 a Mortar man 81's with 2/5 in An Hoa. 2nd Tour I went thru R.I.P. and went back with Recon in and around the Arizona territory.
S/F Vic