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Thread: Liberals frustrated on gun, Guantanamo issues

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Another article which reiterates that while "middle America" might be fooled into voting Democrat, they still know full well that they are not anti-2A, and that's continuing to really irritate the Libs.

    TFred

    Liberals frustrated on gun, Guantanamo issues

    By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON – Frustrated liberals are asking why a Democratic-controlled Congress and White House can't manage to close the Guantanamo prison or keep new gun-rights laws from passing.

    After all, President Barack Obama pledged to shut down the military detention center on Cuba for suspected terrorists. And Democratic control of the government would suggest that any gun legislation leads to tighter controls on weapons, not expanded use.

    Even as they grouse, however, liberal lawmakers acknowledge that no one factor explains last week's disappointing back-to-back votes in Congress.

    The Obama administration is focused on other priorities, they say. Party leaders don't want to endanger Democratic lawmakers from conservative districts by stressing divisive issues such as gun control.

    On Guantanamo, many say, Obama and his allies were caught napping as Republicans stirred public fears about relocating suspected terrorists.

    "I think it's one of the few times that he didn't think it all the way out," said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., an unabashed admirer of the president.

    As for trying to keep loaded guns out of national parks, Cummings said, "I don't think he put a lot of energy into it." Issues such as national security and the distressed economy deserve greater attention, at least for now, he said, adding that the president "picks his fights very carefully."

    Such explanations provide small comfort to left-leaning Democrats after eight years of George W. Bush's presidency and nearly a dozen years of Republican control of Congress.

    "We'll probably end up passing more gun bills" that expand owners' rights "than we did during the Republican administration," said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., a leading gun control advocate. "That is what surprises me."

    She placed less blame on the White House than on ordinary Americans and advocacy groups that are consistently outflanked by gun owners' groups, especially the National Rifle Association.

    "Until the American people say enough is enough, and get active in it," Democratic control of Congress and the White House will not be enough to turn the tide, said McCarthy, whose husband was killed by a gunman in 1993.

    Two votes in Congress last Wednesday dismayed many liberals and exposed the limits of their influence even with Obama as president and Democrats holding solid majorities in both houses.

    The Senate voted 90-6 to join the House in blocking the transfer of any prisoners from Guantanamo. Harsh treatment and indefinite detention of suspects there have sparked worldwide criticisms of the U.S. government and helped al-Qaida recruit volunteers, said Obama, who pledges to close the prison early next year. Lawmakers say they want more details on where detainees will be sent.

    Also Wednesday, the House voted overwhelmingly to join the Senate in letting people carry loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges. More than 100 House Democrats and 174 Republicans voted for the gun measure, which was attached to an Obama-backed bill imposing new restrictions on credit card companies.

    Earlier this year, gun-rights supporters derailed a bill to give the District of Columbia voting rights in Congress by adding a provision that would repeal the city's strict gun regulations.

    The gun votes were less surprising to many Democrats than were the Guantanamo developments. The NRA remains among the most powerful lobbies, and many lawmakers take care to stay off its political enemies list.

    "People do not want to be on the wrong side of this particular cultural divide," said Rep. David Price, D-N.C., who supports tougher gun controls. "It's too bad there's not a more responsible national organization" to counteract the NRA, he said.

    In some ways, the gun-control lobby is choking on Democratic success in congressional races. "The seats we're picking up come disproportionately from those more conservative areas," Price said, where linking the Democratic Party to gun control can be dangerous at re-election time.

    Rep. Lynn Woolsey of California is another Democrat frustrated by the gun debate. When she asks colleagues why they don't support tougher restrictions, she said, they reply, "You just don't get it, Woolsey. You don't have our districts."

    "It has to do with being afraid they'll lose their election if they stand up against guns," she said.

    Guantananamo is a more pressing issue for the administration.

    For months, congressional Republicans and conservative commentators said Obama's plan to close the prison would place terrorists on U.S. soil, even though the locations presumably would be prisons. By the time the administration offered more details and reassurances, congressional Democrats were backpedalling, voting to block funds to relocate detainees.

    "I'm not sure they realized the opposition they were going to come up against," Woolsey said.

    Many Democratic lawmakers predicted that Obama will resolve the Guantanamo problem and eventually turn to gun issues, where he has advocated ownership rights with "common sense" regulations.

    "I do believe that down the road the president will start working on some of the gun violence issues," said McCarthy, the New York Democrat. "But let's face it," she said. "We've got an awful lot of issues on our plate right now."

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    They know that the gun issue is what gave the Republicans control of the Congress for 14 years. They aren't going to make that mistake again. They'll *****-foot around the idea.

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    This is why we need to keep the preassure on. It seems to be working. Continue to support grassroots freedom loving organizations, and continue to vote out those that would sell out our liberty.

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    "Rep. Lynn Woolsey of California is another Democrat frustrated by the gun debate. When she asks colleagues why they don't support tougher restrictions, she said, they reply, "You just don't get it, Woolsey. You don't have our districts." "

    ""It has to do with being afraid they'll lose their election if they stand up against guns," she said."


    It's interesting, they make it sound like you shouldn't have to represent your constituents as elected officials. Call me crazy,but isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?


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    Make no mistake about it, the number of new gun owners in this country have the anti-gun zealots unnerved. Many of these new owners are democrats that could change their allegance over this one issue.

    With the 40 states that now have shall issue carry laws, have the gun sales increasing beyond anyone's expectation. These carry laws, along with the number of citizens taking advantage of the permit system, has knocked the anti-gun ownership movement back many years.

    The pathetic Carolyn McCarthy has exploited the tragedy involving the death of her husband to the point of nauseium . Apparently, there are fewer people ready take general blame for the subway shooter and turn in their second amendment rights.

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    I would really like to see people stop insinuating Democrat automatically equals anti-2A. I personally hold a wide range a beliefs that leaves me disgusted with both parties. Hell, even in my native state of Kansas I know MANY left-leaning people who don't have any issue with citizens being armed with whatever they feel like. Several are CCW permit holders.

    Just to make a point: These are Congresscritters (US Reps) of the Dem persuasion that said NO very clearly to the Assault Weapons Ban in a letter to A.G. Holder.

    1. Mike Ross (D-AR)
    2. Tim Holden (D-PA)
    3. Jerry Costello (D-IL)
    4. Jim Matheson (D-UT)
    5. Sanford Bishop (D-GA)
    6. John Dingell (D-MI)
    7. Marion Berry (D-AR)
    8. Nick Rahall (D-WV)
    9. Gene Green (D-TX)
    10. Chet Edwards (D-TX)
    11. Ciro Rodriguez (D-TX)
    12. Gene Taylor (D-MS)
    13. Bart Stupak (D-MI)
    14. Collin Peterson (D-MN)
    15. Harry Teague (D-NM)
    16. John Tanner (D-TN)
    17. Allen Boyd (D-FL)
    18. Dennis Cardoza (D-CA)
    19. Eric Massa (D-NY)
    20. Steve Kagen, M.D. (D-WI)
    21. Betsy Markey (D-CO)
    22. Paul Hodes (D-NH)
    23. Ron Kind (D-WI)
    24. Peter Welch (D-VT)
    25. Leonard Boswell (D-IA)
    26. Tim Ryan (D-OH)
    27. Walt Minnick (D-ID)
    28. John Boccieri (D-OH)
    29. Joe Donnelly (D-IN)
    30. Tom Perriello (D-VA)
    31. Earl Pomeroy (D-ND)
    32. Ben Chandler (D-KY)
    33. Martin Heinrich (D-NM)
    34. Debbie Halvorson (D-IL)
    35. Travis Childers (D-MS)
    36. Tim Walz (D-MN)
    37. Peter DeFazio (D-OR)
    38. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX)
    39. Paul Kanjorski (D-PA)
    40. Rick Boucher (D-VA)
    41. Mike McIntyre (D-NC)
    42. John Murtha (D-PA)
    43. Bart Gordon (D-TN)
    44. Zach Space (D-OH)
    45. Alan Mollohan (D-WV)
    46. Lincoln Davis (D-TN)
    47. Artur Davis (D-AL)
    48. Charlie Melancon (D-LA)
    49. John Barrow (D-GA)
    50. Christopher Carney (D-PA)
    51. Dan Boren (D-OK)
    52. Parker Griffith (D-AL)
    53. Charlie Wilson (D-OH)
    54. Heath Shuler (D-NC)
    55. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (D-SD)
    56. Jim Marshall (D-GA)
    57. Jason Altmire (D-PA)
    58. Larry Kissell (D-NC)
    59. John Salazar (D-CO)
    60. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN)
    61. Frank Kratovil (D-MD)
    62. Glenn Nye (D-VA)
    63. Bobby Bright (D-AL)
    64. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ)
    65. Joe Baca (D-CA)

    And this is their standings with the Gun Owners of America (GOA)...

    1. Mike Ross (D-AR) --------------------------B-
    2. Tim Holden (D-PA) -------------------------D
    3. Jerry Costello (D-IL) -------------------------C
    4. Jim Matheson (D-UT) ------------------------C
    5. Sanford Bishop (D-GA) ----------------------F
    6. John Dingell (D-MI) -------------------------F
    7. Marion Berry (D-AR) -------------------------C
    8. Nick Rahall (D-WV) --------------------------D
    9. Gene Green (D-TX) ----------------------------A
    10. Chet Edwards (D-TX) ------------------------D
    11. Ciro Rodriguez (D-TX) ----------------------D
    12. Gene Taylor (D-MS) -------------------------C
    13. Bart Stupak (D-MI) ---------------------------B
    14. Collin Peterson (D-MN) ----------------------B
    15. Harry Teague (D-NM) -----------not rated
    16. John Tanner (D-TN) ---------------------------C
    17. Allen Boyd (D-FL) -----------------------------C
    18. Dennis Cardoza (D-CA) ----------------------D
    19. Eric Massa (D-NY) --------------not rated
    20. Steve Kagen, M.D. (D-WI) -------------------D
    21. Betsy Markey (D-CO) ------------not rated
    22. Paul Hodes (D-NH) ---------------------------C
    23. Ron Kind (D-WI) -------------------------------C
    24. Peter Welch (D-VT) --------------not rated
    25. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) ----------------------C
    26. Tim Ryan (D-OH) ---------------------------D
    27. Walt Minnick (D-ID) ---------------------not rated
    28. John Boccieri (D-OH) ------------------not rated
    29. Joe Donnelly (D-IN) ------------------------B
    30. Tom Perriello (D-VA) -----------------not rated
    31. Earl Pomeroy (D-ND) --------------------D
    32. Ben Chandler (D-KY) -----------------------D
    33. Martin Heinrich (D-NM) --------------not rated
    34. Debbie Halvorson (D-IL) ------------------A
    35. Travis Childers (D-MS) ---------------------A
    36. Tim Walz (D-MN) ---------------------------D
    37. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) ----------------------D
    38. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX) ----------------------D
    39. Paul Kanjorski (D-PA) ----------------------D
    40. Rick Boucher (D-VA) -----------------------B
    41. Mike McIntyre (D-NC) ----------------------A
    42. John Murtha (D-PA) ------------------------F
    43. Bart Gordon (D-TN) -------------------------B
    44. Zach Space (D-OH) ------------------------C
    45. Alan Mollohan (D-WV) ------------------C
    46. Lincoln Davis (D-TN) --------------------C
    47. Artur Davis (D-AL) -------------------------D
    48. Charlie Melancon (D-LA) ------------------C
    49. John Barrow (D-GA) -----------------------C
    50. Christopher Carney (D-PA) ---------------B-
    51. Dan Boren (D-OK) --------------------------A
    52. Parker Griffith (D-AL)--------------not rated
    53. Charlie Wilson (D-OH) ---------------------C
    54. Heath Shuler (D-NC) ------------------------C
    55. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (D-SD) --------D
    56. Jim Marshall (D-GA) -----------------------B
    57. Jason Altmire (D-PA) -----------------------A
    58. Larry Kissell (D-NC) -----------------------B-
    59. John Salazar (D-CO) ------------------------D
    60. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN) ----------------------B
    61. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) ---------not rated
    62. Glenn Nye (D-VA) --------------not listed
    63. Bobby Bright (D-AL) -----------not rated
    64. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ) --------nor rated
    65. Joe Baca (D-CA) ----------------------------D


    That list tells me some do it merely for political gain and manuvering, but I'd consider anyone with a C or over not your sworn enemy. Again...

    Liberal =/= anti-2a
    Democrat =/= anti-2a

    Kristen Gillibrand (D-NY) had a 100% NRA rating before getting her new job in lieu Clinton's appointment in Obama's Cabinet. Now she is working towards and Assault Weapons Ban. Anyone can be your friend one day, and your enemy the next. And that goes the other way too.

    Some 22% of people today identify themselves a Republican, 40 some odd percent independent... yet RKBA is growing everyday! Those "middle of the road" American's that don't always vote Republican are the deciding factor for everyone. Antagonize them at your own peril. I'm part of them.

    AC

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    Good point ACEllis. Political affiliation does not automatically mean anti-gun or pro-gun. However a lot of the most notable gun grabbers have been part of the Democratic party (FDR, Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Johnson).

    If you look at the list most of those saying no to Holder are from southern or western states and other more "conservative" states. Most of the reps are from states that have a strong tradition of private firearm ownership.

    By the way I'm not a Republican. I'm a libertarian.

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    People do not want to be on the wrong side of this particular cultural divide," said Rep. David Price, D-N.C., who supports tougher gun controls. "It's too bad there's not a more responsible national organization" to counteract the NRA, he said.
    Rep. Price,

    Oh, you mean like the Brady Campaign? hahaha!

    Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that they are WRONG on nearly all gun control measures against law abiding citizens? Find an organization that has a laser focus on the criminal element, and not on an all out ban on guns, and you will find your national organization. You'll find that an organization with such policies will not be in conflict with what the NRA and GOA already supports, and its existence will not be justified.

    This is not rocket science.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    N00blet45 wrote:
    Good point ACEllis.* Political affiliation does not automatically mean anti-gun or pro-gun.* However a lot of the most notable gun grabbers have been part of the Democratic party.
    I totally forgot that Sarah Brady was also a democrat. Wait...

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    Notso wrote:
    "Rep. Lynn Woolsey of California is another Democrat frustrated by the gun debate. When she asks colleagues why they don't support tougher restrictions, she said, they reply, "You just don't get it, Woolsey. You don't have our districts." "

    ""It has to do with being afraid they'll lose their election if they stand up against guns," she said."


    It's interesting, they make it sound like you shouldn't have to represent your constituents as elected officials. Call me crazy,but isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?
    That is exaxtly 100% of what she is saying. She would prefer that constituents be ignored to pass along their idealogue.

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    marshaul wrote:
    N00blet45 wrote:
    Good point ACEllis. Political affiliation does not automatically mean anti-gun or pro-gun. However a lot of the most notable gun grabbers have been part of the Democratic party.
    I totally forgot that Sarah Brady was also a democrat. Wait...
    Do you really think Sarah Brady still votes Republican?

    TFred

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    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder. Sara Brady's nuthin' more than a crazy old lady with moneyon a hysterical vendetta.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder. Sara Brady's nuthin' more than a crazy old lady with moneyon a hysterical vendetta.
    That word doesn't mean what you think it means. If it were not for Liberalism, you wouldn't have the Age of Enlightment which started the philosophical ball rolling. Without 'them dayummed liburlz', you and I wouldn't have a Constitution to be standing up for every time we holster our sidearms.

    While you and I can agree the Brady folks are well outside the spectrum of rational thinking, slapping a misrepresenting label to their group is no different than us being called gun-toting militant rednecks.

    Or as an old kooky neighbor lady of mine once said"

    "We can argue all day whether its a fox or 'coon gettin' into the hen house... the fact of the matter is, somethin' is stealin' our goddamned eggs!"

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    The Democratic National Committee publicly attributed Al Gore's loss to "W" to the gun rights issue, and Democrats are going to fall all over themselves showing us that they support the Second Amendment. This comes AFTER BHO overturned Bush's Executive Order allowing Guns in Natl Parks. Whoops, not a good move BHO! Notice that he didn't flinch, norsay a word about it, when he signed it back into law withtheCredit Card Bill.

    Now, you can see the Administration trying to put up "feeler" flags on the issue, surely meant more toappease the Brady Bunch: Nancy Pelosi, Eric Holder, Feinstein, and others all saying we need to reinstitute the AWB; then BHO going to Mexico apologizing that we can't pass gun control, amongst others. And all of these flags have been shot full of holes...by Democrats.

    I'm sure that the Brady Bunch is very frustrated; they thought they hit a goldmine with this election.

    Keep watching for more "feeler flags", but we shouldn't let out guard down!

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    Don Barnett wrote:
    . . . This comes AFTER BHO overturned Bush's Executive Order allowing Guns in Natl Parks. Whoops, not a good move BHO! Notice that he didn't flinch, norsay a word about it, when he signed it back into law withtheCredit Card Bill.. . .

    The President did not overturn the NPS rule. A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction temporarily blocking it.

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    Yeah, you are right. Still, the Democrats know which side of their toast is buttered (did I get that metaphor right?).

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    ACEllis wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder. Sara Brady's nuthin' more than a crazy old lady with moneyon a hysterical vendetta.
    That word doesn't mean what you think it means. If it were not for Liberalism, you wouldn't have the Age of Enlightment which started the philosophical ball rolling. Without 'them dayummed liburlz', you and I wouldn't have a Constitution to be standing up for every time we holster our sidearms.

    While you and I can agree the Brady folks are well outside the spectrum of rational thinking, slapping a misrepresenting label to their group is no different than us being called gun-toting militant rednecks.

    Or as an old kooky neighbor lady of mine once said"

    "We can argue all day whether its a fox or 'coon gettin' into the hen house... the fact of the matter is, somethin' is stealin' our goddamned eggs!"
    I've been around long enough to know EXACTLY what it means. I've been around long enough to know that 'liberal's' of the present day are not. That the Democrat party and it's acolytes... if under their true colors would be the red flags of National Socialism/Marxism/Communism and like manner of collective statisms. Ah.... lets not forget the 'Progressives'... the nihilist faction of socialism.

    But... everyone knows what a liberal is (or moreover is not) in the lexicon of the present.

    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder.




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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    ACEllis wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder. Sara Brady's nuthin' more than a crazy old lady with moneyon a hysterical vendetta.
    That word doesn't mean what you think it means. If it were not for Liberalism, you wouldn't have the Age of Enlightment which started the philosophical ball rolling. Without 'them dayummed liburlz', you and I wouldn't have a Constitution to be standing up for every time we holster our sidearms.

    While you and I can agree the Brady folks are well outside the spectrum of rational thinking, slapping a misrepresenting label to their group is no different than us being called gun-toting militant rednecks.

    Or as an old kooky neighbor lady of mine once said"

    "We can argue all day whether its a fox or 'coon gettin' into the hen house... the fact of the matter is, somethin' is stealin' our goddamned eggs!"
    I've been around long enough to know EXACTLY what it means. I've been around long enough to know that 'liberal's' of the present day are not. That the Democrat party and it's acolytes... if under their true colors would be the red flags of National Socialism/Marxism/Communism and like manner of collective statisms. Ah.... lets not forget the 'Progressives'... the nihilist faction of socialism.

    But... everyone knows what a liberal is (or moreover is not) in the lexicon of the present.

    Liberalisim IS a mental disorder.


    I agree with ACEllis' precident. Classical liberalism was rooted in a more libertarian mindset. On certain issues, like abortion legalized pot, and gay rights, they take a stance of individual freedom. However, I don't particularly care about those issues. Modern liberals also embrace groups like VPC, PETA, La Raza, opposes death sentences for violent sociopaths, and walk around with Che Guevara T-Shirts. As far as I'm concerned these types of liberals are truly insane and their political ambitions will ensure the exact opposite outcome of the founder's intentions, and their ideas are do little to reflect the thinking of classical liberals like Edmund Burke.
    So sonora is right to quote Mike Savage, liberalism is a mental disorder.

    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Well this has drifted a bit off topic, not that that is unusual... I read a pair of columns several years ago by Dennis Prager, who neatly defined Liberal and Conservative (although he used Left and Right) in more modern terms.

    It's a reference that is still mostly relevant, even after 5 and a half years. Hard to believe it's been that long since I first read it.

    The second American civil war: what it's about (part 1)

    The second American civil war: what it's about (part 2)

    TFred


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    There is nothing "liberal" about the new left. They are an illiberal bunch, through and through.

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    Liberalism in it's modern form is fascism. I lost my respect for Michael Savage when he disagreed with my ownership of a black rifle.

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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    Liberalism in it's modern form is fascism. I lost my respect for Michael Savage when he disagreed with my ownership of a black rifle.
    I lost my respect of for Michael Savage the first time I heard him utter a complete sentence. He's every bit as much of an anencephalic imbecile as Keith Olberman.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    I dont think and I dont think anyone else thinks that ALL Democrats are gun-grabbing NeoSocialist Radicalibs. There are many good Democrats.

    The problem is that the entire leadership of that party is composed of vile RATS. And these rats have, with a majority, the leadership of ALL comittees and the power of subpoena. Therefore, we absolutely MUST throw a check and a balance on Obama and the Ratz with sizable Republican majorities in both houses come November of next year. And when we have won, we MUST ride herd on the Republicans and remind them they were NOT elected to be DemonRat Lite; which is what got them spanked the last two times.

    We must NOT stay home, write in some goofy fantasy candidate or go for a third party. Doing that is what got us what we have now. We in the RTKBA community are probably the single largest voting bloc in the country ("male" and "female" are not "blocs") and right now our votes are feared more than our firearms by politicians, which is for the best to be sure. If you are a Democrat and are happy with your Democrat rep or Senator, go ahead and vote for him/her but make sure your position on 2A issues is known. If your people in DC are Ratz, however, get busy and work for the Republican opposition.

    A lot of the Ratz are vulnerable. In Nevada Harry Reid is looking decidedly wobbly. Remember Obama orderng companies not to hold business meetings in Las Vegas? That cut into a lot of incomes there, and Obama was actually booed last week. Pelosi is starting to look looney even by California standards and in Illinois the whole Blagojevch/Burris/Obama thing is beginning to exasperate even Chicagoans. In West Virginia, Senator Robert Byrd is in ill health, and if he goes, those people are not going to send Obama another Democrat to help him shut down the mines. The abominable Al Franken has not been certified ...yet; and his behaviour in accting like he has it in the bag may well be alienenating some Minn. Supremes. If we can get just half of the Ratz kicked out, then MAYBE the good Dems can re-take their party.

    This business with Judge Sotomayor has been desctribed as win-win for Obama, but it is actually win-win for US. If we manage to derail her nomination it will hand Obama the All Powerful and Magnificent a nice stinging defeat. And if not, from all accounts she is a b*&^h with a capital B and has alienated her own law clerks. She may just push Justice Kennedy further right. But for now I say we had best go for her defeat.

    I like it that the Ratz are afraid of us. That is as it should be, and they have good reason to be; and they know it and they know we know it and they know that we know that they know it. As Ronald Reagan said: If you can't get them to see the light, make them feel the heat. That's the game, boys.

    Ah well. I gotta go delete a couple Nigerian scam emails to Spam. There's no rest for the weary, now is there??

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Now, if only we could make the GOP afraid of us too. :quirky

  25. #25
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Now, if only we could make the GOP afraid of us too. :quirky
    KEEE-RIST, MARSH! Didn't I just say we would have to ride herd on them??? I think the aforementioned stay-at-home and write-in/3rd party voters have shown them that they need us, and once we have got them - not the same them but you know- back in, we need to get on the emails and snail mails and phones and keep them walking the freaking chalk. Cripes, sometimes I think I need to draw a picture!

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