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Thread: Person from out of state and OC

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    This is in regards to my brother.

    He purchased his pistol that he CC's a year and a half ago when he was still in MI so it is safety inspected and registered in MI. He moved to OK to go to school and while there changed his drivers license and got a concealed weapons permit. He has now come back to MI but for at least 30 to 60 days he will still be considered a resident of OK. The question he wanted me to ask is can he OC since he can legaly have a pistol in MI as he has an OK CPL. And second does he need to register his pistol again?

    I personally think that his pistol registration should be fine....

    All thoughts should cite the approriate MCL please...

    I will continue to reasearch this for him as he will be busy in the next few days with his new job and moving in and such.

    Thanks Ryan
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    They don't have the decency to unregister handguns when you move, so he definitely doesn't need to re register it.

    For him, OCing without a Michigan drivers license is something I'm not sure about. If I remember right, Michigan honors the concealed permits of all 50 states, but out of state people are bound to the restrictions of their home state permits. And obviously Oklahoma is a non permissive OC state. So I would call it iffy for him to be able to OC. I may be wrong, and I hope I am. Hopefully, someone will prove me wrong shortly...
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    This is in regards to my brother.

    He purchased his pistol that he CC's a year and a half ago when he was still in MI so it is safety inspected and registered in MI. He moved to OK to go to school and while there changed his drivers license and got a concealed weapons permit. He has now come back to MI but for at least 30 to 60 days he will still be considered a resident of OK. The question he wanted me to ask is can he OC since he can legaly have a pistol in MI as he has an OK CPL. And second does he need to register his pistol again?

    I personally think that his pistol registration should be fine....

    All thoughts should cite the approriate MCL please...

    I will continue to reasearch this for him as he will be busy in the next few days with his new job and moving in and such.

    Thanks Ryan
    As long as he's not a resident of MI AND does not intend to become a resident, he can use his Resident CPL from another state to OC in Michigan. Once he switches Residency, he may need to re-register the pistol to himself in order to OC them.

    There's no MCL to cite for open carry. This is the only cite I can think of that matters: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.

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    Michigander wrote:
    If I remember right, Michigan honors the concealed permits of all 50 states, but out of state people are bound to the restrictions of their home state permits.
    Just so you know, that's not true.

    The law just requires that the person have a permit to purchase/own/transport a gun on their person in this state. After that, they must honor MI's laws, and that is all.

    There's no way that MI legislature would require local law enforcement to enforce laws of all 49 other states.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    If I remember right, Michigan honors the concealed permits of all 50 states, but out of state people are bound to the restrictions of their home state permits.
    Just so you know, that's not true.

    The law just requires that the person have a permit to purchase/own/transport a gun on their person in this state. After that, they must honor MI's laws, and that is all.

    There's no way that MI legislature would require local law enforcement to enforce laws of all 49 other states.
    Yeah, they honor other states licensees ability to carry, but not there gun laws. I'm not sure which states if any, they do not honor.

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    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    Yeah, they honor other states licensees ability to carry, but not there gun laws. I'm not sure which states if any, they do not honor.
    http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal...state-laws.php

    Michigan honors 46 other states' Concealed carry permits. The other three, I believe, don't issue them at all.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    This is in regards to my brother.

    He purchased his pistol that he CC's a year and a half ago when he was still in MI so it is safety inspected and registered in MI. He moved to OK to go to school and while there changed his drivers license and got a concealed weapons permit. He has now come back to MI but for at least 30 to 60 days he will still be considered a resident of OK. The question he wanted me to ask is can he OC since he can legaly have a pistol in MI as he has an OK CPL. And second does he need to register his pistol again?

    I personally think that his pistol registration should be fine....

    All thoughts should cite the approriate MCL please...

    I will continue to reasearch this for him as he will be busy in the next few days with his new job and moving in and such.

    Thanks Ryan
    A non-resident of Michigan may not possess a pistol in this state unless he/she has a permit/license. Both 750.234d and 28.432a addresses this.

    Your brother does have a permit so he would be able to possess/carrythe pistol in Michigan. However, not only is he required to follow Michigan's restrictions pertaining to prohibited places to OC or CC, but must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions on his permit.

    In other words,aresident inTexas (OC is illegal in Texas) who has a permit/license to carry a concealed pistol may do soin Michigan. However, if Open Carry is listed on the back of the permit/license as being prohibited, then the individual may not OC in Michigan.

    The laws in Michigan differ from the above for non-residents with permit/license to hunt deer.






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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    This is in regards to my brother.

    He purchased his pistol that he CC's a year and a half ago when he was still in MI so it is safety inspected and registered in MI. He moved to OK to go to school and while there changed his drivers license and got a concealed weapons permit. He has now come back to MI but for at least 30 to 60 days he will still be considered a resident of OK. The question he wanted me to ask is can he OC since he can legaly have a pistol in MI as he has an OK CPL. And second does he need to register his pistol again?

    I personally think that his pistol registration should be fine....

    All thoughts should cite the approriate MCL please...

    I will continue to reasearch this for him as he will be busy in the next few days with his new job and moving in and such.

    Thanks Ryan
    A non-resident of Michigan may not possess a pistol in this state unless he/she has a permit/license. Both 750.234d and 28.432a addresses this.

    Your brother does have a permit so he would be able to possess/carrythe pistol in Michigan. However, not only is he required to follow Michigan's restrictions pertaining to prohibited places to OC or CC, but must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions on his permit.

    In other words,aresident inTexas (OC is illegal in Texas) who has a permit/license to carry a concealed pistol may do soin Michigan. However, if Open Carry is listed on the back of the permit/license as being prohibited, then the individual may not OC in Michigan.

    The laws in Michigan differ from the above for non-residents with permit/license to hunt deer.




    Here's the cite MCL 750.231a


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    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    This is in regards to my brother.

    He purchased his pistol that he CC's a year and a half ago when he was still in MI so it is safety inspected and registered in MI. He moved to OK to go to school and while there changed his drivers license and got a concealed weapons permit. He has now come back to MI but for at least 30 to 60 days he will still be considered a resident of OK. The question he wanted me to ask is can he OC since he can legaly have a pistol in MI as he has an OK CPL. And second does he need to register his pistol again?

    I personally think that his pistol registration should be fine....

    All thoughts should cite the approriate MCL please...

    I will continue to reasearch this for him as he will be busy in the next few days with his new job and moving in and such.

    Thanks Ryan
    A non-resident of Michigan may not possess a pistol in this state unless he/she has a permit/license. Both 750.234d and 28.432a addresses this.

    Your brother does have a permit so he would be able to possess/carrythe pistol in Michigan. However, not only is he required to follow Michigan's restrictions pertaining to prohibited places to OC or CC, but must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions on his permit.

    In other words,aresident inTexas (OC is illegal in Texas) who has a permit/license to carry a concealed pistol may do soin Michigan. However, if Open Carry is listed on the back of the permit/license as being prohibited, then the individual may not OC in Michigan.

    The laws in Michigan differ from the above for non-residents with permit/license to hunt deer.




    Here's the cite MCL 750.231a
    Breaking, Section 231a pertains to lawful transport. It's crucial for those who do not have a permit/license and who are residents or non-residents of Michigan.

    Autosurgeon's brother has a permit/license that allows him to carry his pistol in Michigan. At this time it's questionable whether or not he may legally OC here. One thing for certain is that OC is illegal in Ok and chances are OC is listed on the back of his permit as prohibited.

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    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    I am reading this incorrectly then.

    Good thing i don't have to sort it out . Maybe call the local State Troopers or Sheriff Dept.

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    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    I am reading this incorrectly then.

    Good thing i don't have to sort it out . Maybe call the local State Troopers or Sheriff Dept.
    No, you're not incorrect. I was just pointing out that Section 231a pertained to lawful transport. It's mainly applied to those without CPL's. Because,

    The Section does not apply to:

    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Thank you guys... I now have a starting point for my questions for the records people at the state police!

    I called him and there is no OC restriction listed on his CWP.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    NavyLT wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    I am reading this incorrectly then.

    Good thing i don't have to sort it out . Maybe call the local State Troopers or Sheriff Dept.
    No, you're not incorrect. I was just pointing out that Section 231a pertained to lawful transport. It's mainly applied to those without CPL's. Because,

    The Section does not apply to:

    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    A restriction appearing on the license and a prohibition in a state law are two completely different things. For instance, let's say you are driving in Michigan on your home state driver's license. Let's say your home state driving laws state that right turn on red is illegal, but in Michigan it is allowed. Let's say that your home state drivers license has a restriction that you may only drive during the daytime.

    Now, in Michigan, you may, legally, turn right on red. It doesn't matter what your home state law is. BUT, in Michigan, you still CANNOT drive at night, because that is a restriction on your actual license.

    Texas and Oklahoma CHL's are licenses allowing a person to carry a concealed firearm. The licenses themselves do not prohibit open carry, those states' laws do.
    If you look up on the thread I've already said they honor most of (46 apparently, thanks to Zig on that info) the other states CPL. There is no law against it, therefore it's legal; Or is that not how it works? I merely cited that there are restriction, restrictions I am not aware of.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    I am reading this incorrectly then.

    Good thing i don't have to sort it out . Maybe call the local State Troopers or Sheriff Dept.
    No, you're not incorrect. I was just pointing out that Section 231a pertained to lawful transport. It's mainly applied to those without CPL's. Because,

    The Section does not apply to:

    a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    A restriction appearing on the license and a prohibition in a state law are two completely different things. For instance, let's say you are driving in Michigan on your home state driver's license. Let's say your home state driving laws state that right turn on red is illegal, but in Michigan it is allowed. Let's say that your home state drivers license has a restriction that you may only drive during the daytime. NavyLT, did you read what BreakingTheMold highlighted in red? It's the part I previouly mentioned. If you are a licensed, non-resident of Michigan, you may carry your pistol here. I did not say it was illegal for Autosurgeon's brother to OC here, only it was questionable. OC is illegal in both Tx and Ok. While a non-resident of Michigan carrys here, he/she must follow Michigan's restrictions for carrying as well as the restrictions on the back of his or her permit/license. Again, see red (nonconformance).

    Now, in Michigan, you may, legally, turn right on red. It doesn't matter what your home state law is. BUT, in Michigan, you still CANNOT drive at night, because that is a restriction on your actual license. I agree.

    Texas and Oklahoma CHL's are licenses allowing a person to carry a concealed firearm. The licenses themselves do not prohibit open carry, those states' laws do. Have you seen/read the back of both of there licenses, I have not. As I mentioned previously, if OC is listed on the back of those licenses, residents from Tx and Ok can not legally OC here in Michigan. And, as I previously mentioned, the laws pertaining to deer hunting in Michigan for licensed, non-residents of Michigan are different.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    There is no OC restriction on his OK permit.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    There is no OC restriction on his OK permit.
    If that's true and according to Section 231a:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    IANAL, but based on this information alone, I would say your brother may OC in Michigan.





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    IANAL either but I would also agree, the lack of a law against it, means your free to do so.

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    Ok, this is all really confusing,
    I am in WI, There are no permits or licenses required to own, purchase, transport, or carry a firearm. We also have no Concealed carry in this state.

    So if Wisconsin has no licensing, Would I be correct by thinking I can legally open-carry a handgunin Michigan?

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    IANAL but as I read the law, I don't understand how else you could posses one, let alone carry one. I'm not sure though. I think if you do either, and to get a LEO encounter, you'll be in the hot seat for awhile. Are you talking hunting or OCing for protection and or exercising your rights?

    Best to ask a local PD, or do more extensive Research.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Ok, this is all really confusing,
    I am in WI, There are no permits or licenses required to own, purchase, transport, or carry a firearm. We also have no Concealed carry in this state.

    So if Wisconsin has no licensing, Would I be correct by thinking I can legally Â*open-carry a handgunÂ*in Michigan?
    No, you cannot carry/possess in MI, unless you're doing so while under direct supervision of a resident, using their pistol, and carrying for a legally justified reason (I think the law defines this as target practice, hunting, sighting in firearm, etc.)

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    The situation of an out-of-state resident w/ a carry permit who has registered his pistol is a strange situation, as the law ASSUMES that a pistol carried by the out-of-stater would not have been registered in Michigan.
    But autosurgeon's brother DID register the pistol in Michigan while he was a resident.

    The law allowing carry by a non-resident allows exactly that, concealed carry by a resident of another state. Since a resident usually would bring a pistol that has been purchased elsewhere with him in order to carry, the Concealed Permit from his home state serves to exempt him from two things: pistol registration and the CPL law.

    In order to open carry in Michigan, one does NOT need to be a resident. However, in order to purchase a pistol in Michigan, a person needs to follow the pistol permit requirements. People possessing a pistol in Michigan would possess the pistol two ways: 1) get a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol, or 2) bring it in to Michigan from elsewhere-- which requires the out-of-state-permit. (There are other ways, but not really germane)

    Autosurgeon's brother HAS gotten a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol in Michigan while he was a resident, therefore in order to openly carry the pistol, he has already done what was required. He can openly carry the pistol; it does not matter if he has a permit to carry concealed from another state. Since he has gotten the Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport the pistol, any restrictions shown on the out-of-state license have no bearing on open carry here; he is not carrying under an exemption provided by the other state's license to carry.

    However, if while he is here in Michigan he decides to utilize the out-of-state license to carry the license in a manner not allowed under the License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport (concealed under a jacket, openly in a vehicle, etc), then he would be carrying under the authority of that other state's permit/license and would be bound by any restrictions listed upon that permit. The reason for this is that some states list restrictions such as "only during work, "only while hunting", etc. If his out-of-state permit is a "general permit", he can carry in much the same manner as a Michigan CPL.

    There is however one exception to this: a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". Since he has an out-of-state permit, he would not be exempt from the Federal Gun Free Zone Act. Remember too that the Federal definition not only covers the school property proper, but also includes the area within 1,000 feet of the school. Therefore, he would need to follow the exceptions listed in the Federal Law for those WITHOUT a license from the state in which the school zone is located. This "home state" cpl requirement does not cover the Michigan no-carry zones; those would be treated as if he has a Michigan CPL.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________

    Recap: Since he has the concealed carry license from the other state, he can carry concealed on his person or carry openly or concealed in a vehicle: the same as a Michigan CPL.

    Since he has a Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol, he can openly carry outside of his vehicle, any restrictions shown on the other state's permit notwithstanding. However, the only real limitation to autosurgeon's brother that is different than a Michigan CPL holder would be the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act restrictions, and the ability to purchase a new pistol here because he is no longer a resident (Federal Law).
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    Nutczak wrote:
    Ok, this is all really confusing,
    I am in WI, There are no permits or licenses required to own, purchase, transport, or carry a firearm. We also have no Concealed carry in this state.

    So if Wisconsin has no licensing, Would I be correct by thinking I can legally open-carry a handgunin Michigan?
    Nope, you can't. But, it is not you who is prohibited, it is your pistol.

    You can only possess an unregistered pistol in Michigan if you have a License or Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol (basically a permit to purchase) from your state of residence. Since Wisconsin does not license any of these activities with a pistol, and you can't register your pistol in Michigan as a non-resident, you are out of luck.

    You can borrow a pistol that is registered in Michigan w/out getting the Michigan Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol if:
    a) You are not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) You are at a recognized target range or shooting facility
    (c) You possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising your use.

    We are trying to get rid of the registration requirement, but it is an uphill battle. In respect to OC, Wisconsin law for Michigan residents is much better than Michigan law for Wisconsin residents.



    the Michigan registration law is found here: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
    There are ways to claim Michigan residency in order to register the pistol, they are listed in the law. I don't think you would really want to do that, though.


    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    There is however one exception to this: a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". Since he has an out-of-state permit, he would not be exempt from the Federal Gun Free Zone Act.Â* Remember too that the Federal definition not only covers the school property proper, but also includes the area within 1,000 feet of the school.Â* Therefore, he would need to follow the exceptions listed in the Federal Law for those WITHOUT a license from the state in which the school zone is located. This "home state" cpl requirement does not cover the Michigan no-carry zones; those would be treated as if he has a Michigan CPL.
    Are you sure about this? His gun is registered, there for he has the green card. Isn't the green card (from Michigan) sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the GFSZ Act?

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    There is however one exception to this: a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". Since he has an out-of-state permit, he would not be exempt from the Federal Gun Free Zone Act. Remember too that the Federal definition not only covers the school property proper, but also includes the area within 1,000 feet of the school. Therefore, he would need to follow the exceptions listed in the Federal Law for those WITHOUT a license from the state in which the school zone is located. This "home state" cpl requirement does not cover the Michigan no-carry zones; those would be treated as if he has a Michigan CPL.
    Are you sure about this? His gun is registered, there for he has the green card. Isn't the green card (from Michigan) sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the GFSZ Act?
    I live within 1000 feet of a school, as of now, I don't carry while walking around the area.

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