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Person from out of state and OC
- Thread starter autosurgeon
- Start date
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
imported post
The situation of an out-of-state resident w/ a carry permit who has registered his pistol is a strange situation, as the law ASSUMES that a pistol carried by the out-of-stater would not have been registered in Michigan.
But autosurgeon's brother DID register the pistol in Michigan while he was a resident.
The law allowing carry by a non-resident allows exactly that, concealed carry by a resident of another state. Since a resident usually would bring a pistol that has been purchased elsewhere with him in order to carry, the Concealed Permit from his home state serves to exempt him from two things: pistol registration and the CPL law.
In order to open carry in Michigan, one does NOT need to be a resident. However, in order to purchase a pistol in Michigan, a person needs to follow the pistol permit requirements. People possessing a pistol in Michigan would possess the pistol two ways: 1) get a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol, or 2) bring it in to Michigan from elsewhere-- which requires the out-of-state-permit. (There are other ways, but not really germane)
Autosurgeon's brother HAS gotten a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol in Michigan while he was a resident, therefore in order to openly carry the pistol, he has already done what was required. He can openly carry the pistol; it does not matter if he has a permit to carry concealed from another state. Since he has gotten the Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport the pistol, any restrictions shown on the out-of-state license have no bearing on open carry here; he is not carrying under an exemption provided by the other state's license to carry.
However, if while he is here in Michigan he decides to utilize the out-of-state license to carry the license in a manner not allowed under the License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport (concealed under a jacket, openly in a vehicle, etc), then he would be carrying under the authority of that other state's permit/license and would be bound by any restrictions listed upon that permit. The reason for this is that some states list restrictions such as "only during work, "only while hunting", etc. If his out-of-state permit is a "general permit", he can carry in much the same manner as a Michigan CPL.
There is however one exception to this: a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". Since he has an out-of-state permit, he would not be exempt from the Federal Gun Free Zone Act. Remember too that the Federal definition not only covers the school property proper, but also includes the area within 1,000 feet of the school. Therefore, he would need to follow the exceptions listed in the Federal Law for those WITHOUT a license from the state in which the school zone is located. This "home state" cpl requirement does not cover the Michigan no-carry zones; those would be treated as if he has a Michigan CPL.
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Recap: Since he has the concealed carry license from the other state, he can carry concealed on his person or carry openly or concealed in a vehicle: the same as a Michigan CPL.
Since he has a Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol, he can openly carry outside of his vehicle, any restrictions shown on the other state's permit notwithstanding. However, the only real limitation to autosurgeon's brother that is different than a Michigan CPL holder would be the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act restrictions, and the ability to purchase a new pistol here because he is no longer a resident (Federal Law).
The situation of an out-of-state resident w/ a carry permit who has registered his pistol is a strange situation, as the law ASSUMES that a pistol carried by the out-of-stater would not have been registered in Michigan.
But autosurgeon's brother DID register the pistol in Michigan while he was a resident.
The law allowing carry by a non-resident allows exactly that, concealed carry by a resident of another state. Since a resident usually would bring a pistol that has been purchased elsewhere with him in order to carry, the Concealed Permit from his home state serves to exempt him from two things: pistol registration and the CPL law.
In order to open carry in Michigan, one does NOT need to be a resident. However, in order to purchase a pistol in Michigan, a person needs to follow the pistol permit requirements. People possessing a pistol in Michigan would possess the pistol two ways: 1) get a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol, or 2) bring it in to Michigan from elsewhere-- which requires the out-of-state-permit. (There are other ways, but not really germane)
Autosurgeon's brother HAS gotten a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol in Michigan while he was a resident, therefore in order to openly carry the pistol, he has already done what was required. He can openly carry the pistol; it does not matter if he has a permit to carry concealed from another state. Since he has gotten the Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport the pistol, any restrictions shown on the out-of-state license have no bearing on open carry here; he is not carrying under an exemption provided by the other state's license to carry.
However, if while he is here in Michigan he decides to utilize the out-of-state license to carry the license in a manner not allowed under the License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport (concealed under a jacket, openly in a vehicle, etc), then he would be carrying under the authority of that other state's permit/license and would be bound by any restrictions listed upon that permit. The reason for this is that some states list restrictions such as "only during work, "only while hunting", etc. If his out-of-state permit is a "general permit", he can carry in much the same manner as a Michigan CPL.
There is however one exception to this: a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". Since he has an out-of-state permit, he would not be exempt from the Federal Gun Free Zone Act. Remember too that the Federal definition not only covers the school property proper, but also includes the area within 1,000 feet of the school. Therefore, he would need to follow the exceptions listed in the Federal Law for those WITHOUT a license from the state in which the school zone is located. This "home state" cpl requirement does not cover the Michigan no-carry zones; those would be treated as if he has a Michigan CPL.
__________________________________________________________________________
Recap: Since he has the concealed carry license from the other state, he can carry concealed on his person or carry openly or concealed in a vehicle: the same as a Michigan CPL.
Since he has a Michigan License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol, he can openly carry outside of his vehicle, any restrictions shown on the other state's permit notwithstanding. However, the only real limitation to autosurgeon's brother that is different than a Michigan CPL holder would be the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act restrictions, and the ability to purchase a new pistol here because he is no longer a resident (Federal Law).
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
imported post
Nutczak wrote:
You can only possess an unregistered pistol in Michigan if you have a License or Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol (basically a permit to purchase) from your state of residence. Since Wisconsin does not license any of these activities with a pistol, and you can't register your pistol in Michigan as a non-resident, you are out of luck.
You can borrow a pistol that is registered in Michigan w/out getting the Michigan Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol if:
a) You are not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
(b) You are at a recognized target range or shooting facility
(c) You possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
(e) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising your use.
We are trying to get rid of the registration requirement, but it is an uphill battle. In respect to OC, Wisconsin law for Michigan residents is much better than Michigan law for Wisconsin residents.
the Michigan registration law is found here: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
There are ways to claim Michigan residency in order to register the pistol, they are listed in the law. I don't think you would really want to do that, though.
Nutczak wrote:
Nope, you can't. But, it is not you who is prohibited, it is your pistol.
You can only possess an unregistered pistol in Michigan if you have a License or Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol (basically a permit to purchase) from your state of residence. Since Wisconsin does not license any of these activities with a pistol, and you can't register your pistol in Michigan as a non-resident, you are out of luck.
You can borrow a pistol that is registered in Michigan w/out getting the Michigan Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol if:
a) You are not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
(b) You are at a recognized target range or shooting facility
(c) You possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
(e) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising your use.
We are trying to get rid of the registration requirement, but it is an uphill battle. In respect to OC, Wisconsin law for Michigan residents is much better than Michigan law for Wisconsin residents.
the Michigan registration law is found here: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
There are ways to claim Michigan residency in order to register the pistol, they are listed in the law. I don't think you would really want to do that, though.
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
imported post
DrTodd wrote:
Are you sure about this? His gun is registered, there for he has the green card. Isn't the green card (from Michigan) sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the GFSZ Act?
DrTodd wrote:
Are you sure about this? His gun is registered, there for he has the green card. Isn't the green card (from Michigan) sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the GFSZ Act?
BreakingTheMold
Regular Member
imported post
zigziggityzoo wrote:
I live within 1000 feet of a school, as of now, I don't carry while walking around the area.
zigziggityzoo wrote:
I live within 1000 feet of a school, as of now, I don't carry while walking around the area.
Nutczak
Regular Member
imported post
BreakingTheMold wrote:
I am talking about doing anything in MI, Lets say I am out picking blueberries or mushrooms, or even panning for gold at a small stream.
Not hunting or target shooting, Just out doing family oriented things where it would be advisable to carry a sidearm. In WI, we are not required to get permits to own, transport, purchase, or carryany firearm.
Lets just say I am out in the woods near wakefield, or Crystal Falls or somewhere else in the U.P. wandering in the woods and possibly encroaching on a grumpy old black bear's favorite berry patch.
Can I legally carry a holstered handgun in the event I may needto protect myself or family against a bear or any other being that may try to injure us?
Do I need to ask a governing aganecy permission to exercise my 2A rights or purchase a permit, license or register the firearm I may choose to carry openly?
if So, that law is ripe for a lawsuit becuase it completly abolishes my 2A rights.
Hunting:
I know lots of WI families that purchase MI non-resident deer hunting licenses to take advantge of MI season starting 1-week before the WI season starts, They get their Deer in MI one week, come home and hunt here for the next week. I was not aware of any special firearmpermits required for non-resident hunters?
Guys, you have concealed-carry clause that we do not have, but from everything else I have read here, simply owning a firearm as a MI resident seems difficult at best with having to get a license to purchase, own, or transport to and from.
I'll try and decipher the law that was linked, The reason I ask this is because i visit the UP often. And I have a prospecting trip planned where we would like to carry openly if legal.
BreakingTheMold wrote:
I am talking about doing anything in MI, Lets say I am out picking blueberries or mushrooms, or even panning for gold at a small stream.
Not hunting or target shooting, Just out doing family oriented things where it would be advisable to carry a sidearm. In WI, we are not required to get permits to own, transport, purchase, or carryany firearm.
Lets just say I am out in the woods near wakefield, or Crystal Falls or somewhere else in the U.P. wandering in the woods and possibly encroaching on a grumpy old black bear's favorite berry patch.
Can I legally carry a holstered handgun in the event I may needto protect myself or family against a bear or any other being that may try to injure us?
Do I need to ask a governing aganecy permission to exercise my 2A rights or purchase a permit, license or register the firearm I may choose to carry openly?
if So, that law is ripe for a lawsuit becuase it completly abolishes my 2A rights.
Hunting:
I know lots of WI families that purchase MI non-resident deer hunting licenses to take advantge of MI season starting 1-week before the WI season starts, They get their Deer in MI one week, come home and hunt here for the next week. I was not aware of any special firearmpermits required for non-resident hunters?
Guys, you have concealed-carry clause that we do not have, but from everything else I have read here, simply owning a firearm as a MI resident seems difficult at best with having to get a license to purchase, own, or transport to and from.
I'll try and decipher the law that was linked, The reason I ask this is because i visit the UP often. And I have a prospecting trip planned where we would like to carry openly if legal.
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Nutczak wrote:
You cannot legally possess a handgun in Michigan without one of these, unless you're a resident, in which case, you'd have one by registering your handgun.
See my first statement.
It sucks, but until your state turns in your rights in exchange for privilege, you cannot carry in Michigan.
Nutczak wrote:
You cannot legally possess a handgun in Michigan without one of these, unless you're a resident, in which case, you'd have one by registering your handgun.
See above.
With a hunting license, you may possess a loaded long arm in the state of MI. Without the hunting license, the law is ambiguous to whether you may carry a loaded long arm in the state (even residents). I'm still researching the legalities of such.
See my first statement.
It sucks, but until your state turns in your rights in exchange for privilege, you cannot carry in Michigan.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
imported post
zigziggityzoo wrote:
The reason I answered as I did regarding the License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol is because I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY INTERPRETATION that states it "qualifies" as en exemption. Therefore, if I were to say that it DOES QUALIFY AS AN EXEMPTION", I have issued a legal opinion and could be crossing the line into practicing law w/out a license. Plus, someone could go to jail based on my "interpretation".
It may qualify.... I do not know. Would I attempt to use it in defense if I were charged and had only a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol as my sole defense: perhaps. Do I think I'd win? I really believe, perhaps.
zigziggityzoo wrote:
Yes I am sure about this, that a Michigan CPL holder would be allowed to travel with a open or concealed pistol in a vehicle in a "school zone" or carry openly in a "school zone". (I've read a letter from the ATF/DOJ that says it would be legal for the feds, Jennifer Granholm AG opinion saying legal in regards to state law.).
The reason I answered as I did regarding the License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol is because I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY INTERPRETATION that states it "qualifies" as en exemption. Therefore, if I were to say that it DOES QUALIFY AS AN EXEMPTION", I have issued a legal opinion and could be crossing the line into practicing law w/out a license. Plus, someone could go to jail based on my "interpretation".
It may qualify.... I do not know. Would I attempt to use it in defense if I were charged and had only a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a pistol as my sole defense: perhaps. Do I think I'd win? I really believe, perhaps.
autosurgeon
Regular Member
imported post
Thank you for your well thought out answer to my questions DrTodd!
Thank you for your well thought out answer to my questions DrTodd!
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
imported post
DrTodd wrote:
Oh, I know the CPL qualifies as an exemption, but I don't think it's the only exemption.
I think that since his pistol is registered in MI, he then has the license to carry that pistol, and the 1000' school zone rule is nullified, since he has a license to carry it (virtual license of course, they keep track on the LEIN).
DrTodd wrote:
Oh, I know the CPL qualifies as an exemption, but I don't think it's the only exemption.
I think that since his pistol is registered in MI, he then has the license to carry that pistol, and the 1000' school zone rule is nullified, since he has a license to carry it (virtual license of course, they keep track on the LEIN).
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
Nutczak wrote:
Nutczak wrote:
Are handguns registered in Wisconsin? If so that MAY be all you need, the new law has not been tested. If you don't have a permit or registration of a handgun in Wisconsin, then you CAN NOT possess a handgun in Michigan. You can drive THROUGH Michigan with it locked and unloaded in a trunk, but you have to be driving through and not staying.
Nutczak
Regular Member
imported post
Venator wrote:
There is no registration of any firearm in WI, The onlyannoyance we have is when purchasing from a licensed dealer, they are required to have a 48 hour waiting period. The NICS check lowered the wait period time from our previous 72 hours wait.
It seems like Detroit makes policy for the rest of the state. Sort of like Chicago makes policy for the entire state of Illinois. Quite sad really.
Venator wrote:
There is no registration of any firearm in WI, The onlyannoyance we have is when purchasing from a licensed dealer, they are required to have a 48 hour waiting period. The NICS check lowered the wait period time from our previous 72 hours wait.
It seems like Detroit makes policy for the rest of the state. Sort of like Chicago makes policy for the entire state of Illinois. Quite sad really.