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Thread: Had to kick out a damn OCer today

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    One of my part time jobs is Loss Prevention at Sears. We have a policy of no guns unless they're in uniform (any uniform is fine by me ). I had a guy walk in through tools today with a revolver on his hip, I saw him enter on the cameras, I'm not gina go ask someone to disarm until I'm told to go ask, I obviously could care less. Sure enough the guy in hardware calls and tells me there's a guy with a gun. I tell him I'm right on it and do absolutely nothing for the next 10 minutes. After the 3rd associatecalls me,I decide I'm probably going to get in trouble if I don't go say something to this guy. So I go out and introduce myself to the guy. I'm being as nice as possible and I tell him that our store doesn't allow firearms. He pretty much blows me off and says he doesn't believe I work here and I shouldmind my own business (weare undercover and try to blend in as shoppers). I show him my badge and picture ID and explain to him I do work here and I'm really sorry but he cant have firearms on our property and it is posted. He then tells me thatIf I can't support his 1st amendment rights (I was confused by that one) I should go back to Iraq and goF myself in the A. He left and didn't some back...

    It's these kind of people that make it so hard to OC. They make us all look like a bunch of redneck hicks who graduated from the 4th grade in R-Kansus and married our cousin.

    I didn't even get a chance to talk guns with him like I do with most everyone who's carrying that comes in. Oh well.

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    Thats ashame. Was it a older guy? Not to generalize,but seems the older men tend to take things a lot more personal. Personally I would have just Covered it up, and continued shopping with a " Print " mark. Im asuming OC holsters dont make good CC holsters lol

    And if that wasnt good enough, just left and told them I would never be back to shop in there again. Along with a letter to the store.


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    He was in his mid 40s ish I would guess. He just didn't seem very well educated, and made himself look like an idiot. He assumed justbecause i asked him to disarmI was a bleeding liberal who was scared of his gun. Whichafter talking to him did make me a little nervous he was armed. He definitely wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. But its his right and I support it.:celebrate

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    I wonder if it would work better to talk guns first for a few moments, and only then gently break it to him that the suits at corporate have decided to ignore the self-defense rights of the un-uniformed.

    I'm thinking you could explain away the extra time to any supervisors that this approach helps keep the customer willing to come back, rather than abandon Sears forPenneys.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    TylerEMT wrote:
    He then tells me thatIf I can't support his 1st amendment rights (I was confused by that one) I should go back to Iraq and goF myself in the A. He left and didn't some back...

    It's these kind of people that make it so hard to OC. They make us all look like a bunch of redneck hicks who graduated from the 4th grade in R-Kansus and married our cousin.

    I didn't even get a chance to talk guns with him like I do with most everyone who's carrying that comes in. Oh well.
    Articulate, or not, he was right. I couldn't take a job that put me on the other end of an American's rights. You couldn't toss out a mother for bringing her child or a man for wearing a crucifix.

    Uncomfortable though it might be, if you told Sears that you couldn't strip an American of his rights, that would start Sears on the right path.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Uncomfortable though it might be, if you told Sears that you couldn't strip an American of his rights, that would start Sears on the right path.
    We have a form to make a reasonable request to alter something in our job. Its mainly for religious reasons, but I'm sure I could fill it out and say I can't ask someone to disarm because it's their right. I'm 99% sure they would approve that request. But then the task would fall on store management if I was the only one working, and I don' think they'd take the time to talk guns or make the person feel like what their doing is ok.

    Its not so much Sears as it is the mall we're located in. Westcor has the policy and could fine a store for going against it. Either we deal with it or we call mall security to come deal with it. I don't want to deal with mall security for something stupid that I can take care of.

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    If in that situation, I'd say something like "Sir, I'm real sorry to tell you that there is a store rule against open carry. It pisses me off, because I do it too. I can't blame you if you don't want to shop here after this, because this is why I don't spend any money here myself. Please feel free to complain to my boss"
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Put these people in touch with some Real "Loss Prevention Agents, Our Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/,Body Guards, The S,S, of the U.S..............think on this awhile kids.........and all the other Alphabet Agencies.................."The Operative Word In Self Defense Is Self"..............................Are We That Mercenary as TSHTF......Hope not.........yet.......................Soon, hmm

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    Years ago, I was in the Arrow Pharmacy in Candler and was in line at the register behind some guy OCing. Anyway, this idiot was making small talk with the clerk (a young lady) about giving a whole bunch of people "reverse abortions." I never did find out what group of people he was talking about. What surprised me was that he was an older man and really should've known better (hell, I was a teenager at the time and would've never done something like that.)

    Anyway, it's idiots like this who make the rest of us look bad and get those stupid "no guns" signs put up.

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    TylerEMT wrote:
    Its not so much Sears as it is the mall we're located in. Westcor has the policy and could fine a store for going against it. Either we deal with it or we call mall security to come deal with it. I don't want to deal with mall security for something stupid that I can take care of.
    Say nothing, and don't rat on a fellow American for being one.

    People call this a "free country," yet I can't find anywhere that I'm free.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    TylerEMT wrote:
    Its not so much Sears as it is the mall we're located in. Westcor has the policy and could fine a store for going against it. Either we deal with it or we call mall security to come deal with it. I don't want to deal with mall security for something stupid that I can take care of.
    Say nothing, and don't rat on a fellow American for being one.

    People call this a "free country," yet I can't find anywhere that I'm free.
    He already said that he ignored a couple of calls from associates. His job is to uphold the property rights of his employer.

    TylerEMT deserves no criticism. Perhaps he could have approached the shopper in a way that would have assured a better outcome, but the guy was a jerk, no two ways about it. TylerEMT was representing his employer's policy to the customer...if the customer does not like that, he doesn't have to shop there.

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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    TylerEMT wrote:
    Its not so much Sears as it is the mall we're located in. Westcor has the policy and could fine a store for going against it. Either we deal with it or we call mall security to come deal with it. I don't want to deal with mall security for something stupid that I can take care of.
    Say nothing, and don't rat on a fellow American for being one.

    People call this a "free country," yet I can't find anywhere that I'm free.
    He already said that he ignored a couple of calls from associates. His job is to uphold the property rights of his employer.

    TylerEMT deserves no criticism. Perhaps he could have approached the shopper in a way that would have assured a better outcome, but the guy was a jerk, no two ways about it. TylerEMT was representing his employer's policy to the customer...if the customer does not like that, he doesn't have to shop there.
    Carrying is a fundamental right, for which discrimination is no more tolerated than being a Christian or homosexual.

    Would he throw out a person wearing a crucifix? Would he dare throw out an openly homosexual couple?

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Carrying is a fundamental right, for which discrimination is no more tolerated than being a Christian or homosexual.

    Would he throw out a person wearing a crucifix? Would he dare throw out an openly homosexual couple?
    I'm not saying the company should throw people out for carrying guns. I would personally much prefer that they didn't. But the company certainly has the right to refuse service. Rights cut both ways. I have no right to shop in their store. If they don't want to serve me because I'm carrying a firearm to protect myself, I will respect that and I will spend my money elsewhere. In this way my rights do not conflict with their rights and their rights do not conflict with mine.

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    I'm not saying the company should throw people out for carrying guns. I would personally much prefer that they didn't. But the company certainly has the right to refuse service.

    We're talking about an incorporated business, here. I maintain that corporations have no rights, despite what those self-important fools on the Supreme Court say.

    In any case, TylerEMT certainly cannot be faulted just for doing his job. After all, he tried to be as polite as possible with the guy and was actually cutting him a break. Since the bonehead was technically trespassing (the property is posted), he could have called the cops and had him cited and permanently kicked off the property.

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    This is my uniform sir.

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    me812 wrote:
    I'm not saying the company should throw people out for carrying guns. I would personally much prefer that they didn't. But the company certainly has the right to refuse service.

    We're talking about an incorporated business, here. I maintain that corporations have no rights...
    Interesting...why is that? Ultimately, it is people who own the business or corporation...and those people have property rights.

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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    me812 wrote:
    I'm not saying the company should throw people out for carrying guns. I would personally much prefer that they didn't. But the company certainly has the right to refuse service.

    We're talking about an incorporated business, here. I maintain that corporations have no rights...
    Interesting...why is that? Ultimately, it is people who own the business or corporation...and those people have property rights.
    Corporations, like governments, are legal fictions.

  18. #18
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    Ultimately, it is people who own the business or corporation...and those people have property rights.

    A corporation is nothing more than a person or group of people who have petitioned the government (i.e. we the people) for certain special rights and privileges. When we the people grant those special rights and privileges, we have every right to stipulate that in return, we have the right to regulate that corporation for the public good. If you own a business and don't like these rules, then don't incorporate. In that case, I'll support your right to kick anyone off your property that you want for any reason.

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    me812 wrote:
    Ultimately, it is people who own the business or corporation...and those people have property rights.

    A corporation is nothing more than a person or group of people who have petitioned the government (i.e. we the people) for certain special rights and privileges. When we the people grant those special rights and privileges, we have every right to stipulate that in return, we have the right to regulate that corporation for the public good. If you own a business and don't like these rules, then don't incorporate. In that case, I'll support your right to kick anyone off your property that you want for any reason.
    I see what you're saying.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 04:27 pm by Tomahawk
    And I went out of my way to see what he had to say, too.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    1st Amendment?

    He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I have to agree with another poster... I couldn't accept a job where my employer disrespected it's customers' rights after inviting them onto the property to take their money...

    I'd tell you to go back to whatever Communist $hithole you came from and F yourself in the A, too. If it were my job requirement to do that, I'd find another job. "It's not you, it's the uniform."

    I'm curious... Why can't the 'associates' who told you "OMG he has a gun, I'm wetting my panties!" inform him of this policy themselves? 3 calls? waited 10 minutes? If they're calling you, they must know... Why are you the one that has to be the bad guy? There was no theft, so it's not LP's business, right?


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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    TylerEMT wrote:
    Its not so much Sears as it is the mall we're located in. Westcor has the policy and could fine a store for going against it. Either we deal with it or we call mall security to come deal with it. I don't want to deal with mall security for something stupid that I can take care of.
    Say nothing, and don't rat on a fellow American for being one.

    People call this a "free country," yet I can't find anywhere that I'm free.
    He already said that he ignored a couple of calls from associates. His job is to uphold the property rights of his employer.

    TylerEMT deserves no criticism. Perhaps he could have approached the shopper in a way that would have assured a better outcome, but the guy was a jerk, no two ways about it. TylerEMT was representing his employer's policy to the customer...if the customer does not like that, he doesn't have to shop there.
    TylerEMT probably was uncomfortable in approaching the guy with the gun, but he had no choice. I'm sure the parties who complained about the MWAG were watching from a distance, ready to pounce on TylerEMT's boss for not following up on the call.

    Some people like to complain!

    A few years ago I was riding the Harley on Oracle around McGee on a HOT afternoon - 105 degrees. Traffic was crawling, except for the right lane, which I moved into and cranked it up a bit. I was passing everyone, including the Tucson Police car which immediately pulled behind me and turned on his lights.

    I stopped, got off the bike and started fishing for my license, registration and insurance card. Cop told me never mind -- he was going home. We chatted for several minutes.

    He said if he didn't pull me over, someone would copy the cruiser number and report him for allowing a biker to exceed the speed limit.

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    TylerEMT wrote:
    ...It's these kind of people that make it so hard to OC. They make us all look like a bunch of redneck hicks who graduated from the 4th grade in R-Kansus and married our cousin...
    Yep, it's a damn shame.

    Thanks for trying, and here's to hoping that the next encounter is more pleasant.



    The local Sears has no posts against concealed carry, so I'm intrigued about what your understanding is of Sear's corporate policy regarding firearms?

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    ixtow wrote:
    1st Amendment?

    He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I have to agree with another poster... I couldn't accept a job where my employer disrespected it's customers' rights after inviting them onto the property to take their money...

    I'd tell you to go back to whatever Communist $hithole you came from and F yourself in the A, too. If it were my job requirement to do that, I'd find another job. "It's not you, it's the uniform."

    I'm curious... Why can't the 'associates' who told you "OMG he has a gun, I'm wetting my panties!" inform him of this policy themselves? 3 calls? waited 10 minutes? If they're calling you, they must know... Why are you the one that has to be the bad guy? There was no theft, so it's not LP's business, right?

    Get a clue pal, Loss prevention is a fancy title for security. By calling thesefolks loss prevention you don't have to have them in uniform, as required by law in most States. Regardless loss preventionservesunder the authority of management. This fellow was doing his job politely, and the responsewas unacceptable. Unfortunately many thugs, bully types open carry to prove what "big men" they are, not for legitimate reasons like personal protection. When confronted by store personnel (something they live for) they conduct themselves poorly and hurtthe cause.

    We must remember that the Right to Keep & Bare Arms is not a right to violate private property rights, and yes Corporations have private property rights. Regardless of what a few criminals calling themselves "free men" have to say aboutit, private property rights are just as valid as the2ND amendment.

    It always amazes me to hear "free men" types yap about their rights, yet violateothersrights without a thought. The more I read threads like this the more I understand why businesses post. Rumor has it the Walmart is going to be posting all their stores because of the continuing problems. When we get rude with store owners & managers, that will bethe result. People will think these guys are nuts, we can't have them carrying guns in here.The Walmart were Ibuy most ofmy practice ammo has a really decent guy running thegun counter. He told me that Walmarts throughout the country will soon be posted because of the problem children. One idiot came in and got into a screaming match with a customer service representative over a return/ refund issue. When a manager was called to approve the return she found a very angry man with a gun on his hip. This issue went straight to corporate. We will surfer agreat lossif Walmart posts their stores: No firearms may be carried with or without a permit unless by law enforcement. Many retailing groups follow Walmart, this could really be the start of a horrible trend.

    Who will we have to thank for this ? Theguys that think their right to carry supercedes private property rights.Dropping the F bomb on store personnel is just plan ignorant and counter productive. Some of you "free men" idiots are your own worst enemy. You spend your time worrying about black helicopters while the man in the mirror is the real threat to your freedom.

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