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Thread: Carrying on School Grounds

  1. #1
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    I think I know the answer to this, but I thought I'd put it out there just in case.

    I've taken to night jogging in the past few months in attempt to get rid of some of the gut I'm carrying around. One of my favorite places to go jogging is at the track at the high school (go figure).

    I'd like to carry while I'm out on my runs, but I'm guessing that even though it's after hours that I'd still be in violation of state law for carrying on school property. Can someone confirm this?

    I know I can go running at the park, but the park is generally less well lit and, from reading the newspaper, seems to be more prone to crime than the school grounds after dark.

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    property ownership does not change with the absence of the owner/caretaker. I would suggest NOT going onto the federally funded school property with any type of weapon unless you want to have issues with the local law enforcement types. Have you considered a gym membership or purchasing a treadmill? (them things have cup holders in many cases, and you can keep your sidearm in that while you jog...)

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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    The only time you can carry onto school grounds is while picking up a student.

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    See the FAQ's. Questions 1 and 14.

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    Now this is something of a problem... I'm not sure I thought of it as being able to carry only if dropping off or picking up a student from school. During the fall, I volunteerwith a local little league football team that has practice Monday through Friday at one of the local high-schools. Sometimes I go there straight from work. Usually I have to go home to pick up my kids ( who play for the team ) then go to practice. Last year as the season started, I thought I read a thread on here that somehow explained that as long as it remains hidden and locked in your vehicle, it is OK. I see this as acceptable since I if I can't have it there, I'm being disarmed while I travel to work, to practice, home from practice... I think this part of the RCW might me a little nebulous.
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    SpyderTattoo wrote:
    Now this is something of a problem... I'm not sure I thought of it as being able to carry only if dropping off or picking up a student from school. During the fall, I volunteerwith a local little league football team that has practice Monday through Friday at one of the local high-schools. Sometimes I go there straight from work. Usually I have to go home to pick up my kids ( who play for the team ) then go to practice. Last year as the season started, I thought I read a thread on here that somehow explained that as long as it remains hidden and locked in your vehicle, it is OK. I see this as acceptable since I if I can't have it there, I'm being disarmed while I travel to work, to practice, home from practice... I think this part of the RCW might me a little nebulous.
    Excerpt from 9.41.280;

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:


    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    My worst fears are confirmed. I guess I knew it was coming. I've never carried while running at the track because I was pretty well certain that that was the case. I guess I was praying that it could work out like school zone speed limits, and only be applicable during regular school hours.

    Thanks guys

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    What about carrying pepper spray?
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    Really I don't see an issue with Police if your carrying concealed (like a pocket pistol with wallet holster). God gave me my ability to protect myself federal government be damned.

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    I've got a quick question to while we are on the subject of schools. Recently I've started riding my bike around town trying to loose some of the weight I've picked up during my unemployment and I like to open carry while I do so. My problem is that there are schools everywhere and I remember something about not being able to get within a certain distance of the school, but I remember something about if you have your CPL it does not apply. Granted you still cant go on school property with a gun. So, do I have to keep avoiding schools like the plague or can I legally keep riding by without getting in trouble?

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    badger54 wrote:
    What about carrying pepper spray?
    It is lawful to carry pepper spray on school grounds.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    cdjspider wrote:
    I've got a quick question to while we are on the subject of schools. Recently I've started riding my bike around town trying to loose some of the weight I've picked up during my unemployment and I like to open carry while I do so. My problem is that there are schools everywhere and I remember something about not being able to get within a certain distance of the school, but I remember something about if you have your CPL it does not apply. Granted you still cant go on school property with a gun. So, do I have to keep avoiding schools like the plague or can I legally keep riding by without getting in trouble?
    Without a permit it is probably unlawful in Wa. With a permit is is completely lawful.

    Here is the federal code for the gun free school zone, which is 1000ft from the grounds of a public or private school.

    Code:
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone. 
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— 
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds; 
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify 
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license; 
    (iii) that is— 
    (I) not loaded; and 
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle; 
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; 
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the 
    individual or an employer of the individual; 
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or 
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Washington does not require you maintain a distance from the school. As long as you're not on school grounds, you're okay. Scary for me was that I have been going to the Redmond Farmer's Market on Saturdays (open or concealed, depending on the day). Approaching from a different direction today, I found out that there's a district office or something there, and the parking lot to that side and building is technically a "school zone." Basically, if I were to, say, trip and fall on the sidewalk, I'd fall into a school zone >.<
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Thanks for the quick answers, looks like I'm in the clear then. I have my CPL :celebrate

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    joeroket wrote:
    cdjspider wrote:
    I've got a quick question to while we are on the subject of schools. Recently I've started riding my bike around town trying to loose some of the weight I've picked up during my unemployment and I like to open carry while I do so. My problem is that there are schools everywhere and I remember something about not being able to get within a certain distance of the school, but I remember something about if you have your CPL it does not apply. Granted you still cant go on school property with a gun. So, do I have to keep avoiding schools like the plague or can I legally keep riding by without getting in trouble?
    Without a permit it is probably unlawful in Wa. With a permit is is completely lawful.

    Here is the federal code for the gun free school zone, which is 1000ft from the grounds of a public or private school.

    Code:
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone. 
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— 
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds; 
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify 
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license; 
    (iii) that is— 
    (I) not loaded; and 
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle; 
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; 
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the 
    individual or an employer of the individual; 
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or 
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.
    Yeah, struck down by US v. Lopez then brought back with the "has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce." It saddens me to see how much that section of the Constitution is abused. Something which, obviously, was meant to ensure free trade among the states and a uniform dealing with international commerce became a "something involved in interstate commerce can be banned". Instead of making it about ensuring free commerce, Congress has used it as a hook for every piece of crap legislation imaginable.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member fatalhubris's Avatar
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    so if I understand this correctly I’m kosher leaving my arms in my trunk when I take my kid to her karate class? It is held at a local middle school via the Y. I have been just putting everything in the trunk and being concerned about anyone seeing me do so. yes I have my CPL

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:


    **** (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    **** (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;
    [/quote]

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    fatalhubris wrote:
    so if I understand this correctly I’m kosher leaving my arms in my trunk when I take my kid to her karate class? It is held at a local middle school via the Y. I have been just putting everything in the trunk and being concerned about anyone seeing me do so. yes I have my CPL

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:


    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;
    You are OK putting it anywhere you want provided it is out of view from the outside and the vehicle is locked.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    fatalhubris wrote:
    so if I understand this correctly I’m kosher leaving my arms in my trunk when I take my kid to her karate class? It is held at a local middle school via the Y. I have been just putting everything in the trunk and being concerned about anyone seeing me do so. yes I have my CPL

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:


    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;
    Putting it under the seat would be far better as you would not risk someone seeing you put it in your trunk and then leaving it. That just invites disaster in my opinion.
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    I work in the school security arena, so I'm well versed on this issue. You must be sure to comply with both Federal and State law:

    Federal law (The Gun Free School Zones Act of 1994) prohibits firearms within 1000 feet of a school with certain exemptions. One of the exemptions is if the person has a firearm permit issued by the state in which the school is located and the state conducts a background check before permits are issued. If a person has such a permit, they are not prohibited by Federal law from carrying onto school grounds or even into a school (hence the reason that the district in Texas was able to allow some teachers to carry).

    State law cannot be more lenient than Federal law, but can be more restrictive, as is the case in Washington.

    Washington statute prohibits the possession of a loaded pistol on school grounds unless the person has a CPL and is picking up a student, or has a CPL and the pistol stays secured in the vehicle. Except for certain narrow execptions, firearms are prohibited inside school buildings except for LEO and school security. Whether picking up a student or not, do not enter a building with a firearm.

    For any OCers who dont have a Washington CPL, carry within 1000 feet of a school is technically a violation of Federal law, whether legal under state law or not.

    A school is always a school, until it passes from school district ownership, and although federal law provides for passage through or across school property for hunting, state law does not.

    <sarcasm alert>

    Of course, our teachers and students are safer because all the gang-bangers and other criminals follow the rules, so there could never be a school shooting here.

    <sarcasm off>

    Charles

    IANAL

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    On a practical note, the re-vamped federal school zone law has never been enforced by any state that has not adopted the law for its own, as far as anyone on this board has been able to determine.

    As far as anyone can point to, the only people who have EVER been convicted of breaking the FSZL are those who committed some other crime with a firearm and had it tagged on to their charges, and normally only in states that have adopted it because state LE just don't know about it otherwise.

    IANAL....but!

    I have had a conversation with one who's practice focuses a lot on firearms offenses, and he stated that any State that "gives full weight and privilege" in their reciprocity law to another State's license is in effect giving you defense in a federal court for carrying in the FSZL because any state permit they honor is specifically stated to be given any and all "privileges" as their own state permit. Federal government may not agree by their own law wording but that law is on shaky ground to begin with.

    Test case anyone? lol

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I am glad this thread came up. I was considering picking up my kid now that the weather is warmer with my motorcycle. They love it when I do that. Now that I have my cpl I should be able to due it while open carrying. Correct? or am I misreading what has been stated.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Pepper spray backed by a combat knife is an option

    Theres no mention of knives in the school law , the closest is this ,

    b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

    However the law states "Dagger or Dirk or other dangerous weapon" if intentionally concealed , its case law insome states , aswell as common knife terminology. that a dirk is either a small dagger orfew specific types of single edged knives such as the Sgian Duhb and related scottish blades.

    It can be a violation of school policy but as far as I can figure you could OC acombat blade of indefined length at a school though theres 9.41.270 . however I'd just run at another track , Reading about the Sihks carrying Kirpans I brought it up to my teachers late in highschool but didnt really press the issue .

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I am glad this thread came up. I was considering picking up my kid now that the weather is warmer with my motorcycle. They love it when I do that. Now that I have my cpl I should be able to due it while open carrying. Correct? or am I misreading what has been stated.
    If you have a CPL, you won't be violating the law if you stay out of the building and on the bike, however you will likely gain some attention you may not want. OC on school grounds is really pushing the envelope; think it through carefully before you do.

    Charles

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    Lord_Kalen wrote:
    Pepper spray backed by a combat knife is an option

    It can be a violation of school policy but as far as I can figure you could OC acombat blade of indefined length at a school though theres 9.41.270 .
    There isn't a blanket answer to this. Although OC of a combat knife isn't a violation of state or federal law as far as I can determine, it may be a violation of municipal law.

    There is no preemption for weapons other than firearms, so counties and cities are free to enact laws that prohibit combat knives, whether on school property or not. In some localities in Washington, any fixed blade is illegal.

    Open carrying anything onto a K-12 campus is pushing the envelope, except that folding clip-on knives are pretty common with non-students these days and generally ignored. Even though you may not be violating any law by OC of a combat knife, I expect you will be advised that if you repeat the action you wil be trespassed from school property.

    Charles

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    Charles Paul Lincoln wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I am glad this thread came up. I was considering picking up my kid now that the weather is warmer with my motorcycle. They love it when I do that. Now that I have my cpl I should be able to due it while open carrying. Correct? or am I misreading what has been stated.
    If you have a CPL, you won't be violating the law if you stay out of the building and on the bike, however you will likely gain some attention you may not want. OC on school grounds is really pushing the envelope; think it through carefully before you do.

    Charles
    If you are picking up or dropping off a child you are not required to stay in ( or on in this case ) your vehicle. Entering a building is still a no-no though.

    I personally would not OC on school grounds as it may be considered at a time and place that warrants alarm for the safety of others. I am not sure how the courts would view it.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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