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Thread: Posting Experiences

  1. #1
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    I think posting our experiences is a good thing, but it seems to me that posting every experience or advertising where we plan to OC next makes it seem as though we are trying to provoke an incident.

    When I spoke to the Chief in Chilton he told me he has looked at this website and with posters talking about trying to find someone to follow them around with a video recorder while they OC it seems to him that they are just trying to provoke an incident.

    I know that we all know the reason we are carrying audio recorders and cameras, but to keep it real I guess I can see his point of view as well and maybe we should consider this when we post in this or any other forum.

    Just my .02

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  2. #2
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    When I spoke to the Chief in Chilton he told me he has looked at this website and with posters talking about trying to find someone to follow them around with a video recorder while they OC it seems to him that they are just trying to provoke an incident.

    Ask him if squad car-mounted video cameras are there because the police are trying to provoke an incident.

    That's baloney. What gets recorded on a video camera could just as well support any actions taken by the police as it could exonerate the actions of a person who is detained or arrested. They are public servants and their actions fair game for public scrutiny and review.

    If the Chilton Chief wants to find an attempt to provoke an incident with open carry he need look no further than at the statements like those that spewed from Chief Flynn in Milwaukee.

    The suggestion that the exercise of lawful and constitutionally protected rights-- i.e., carrying a gun and carrying a recording device-- is a "provocation" is disturbing. Maybe the Chief would care to log into this forum and clarify his remarks.


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    This entire movement will end up failing here in Wisconsin because of tunnel vision from people such as yourself.

    You obviously missed the point shotgun and since you are suppose to be a fire arms instructor you of all people should understand the point I was trying to make.

    Regardless of what you say, yours and my opinions are not what counts here. However, the opinion of the people that see us open carry and live in our communities does count. It is their positive opinions that will help us to strengthen our stand on this issue. Without them, we will still have our 2nd Amendment right for now, but for how long?

    In all honesty you seem to be a highly intelligent individual. Maybe you just mistook what I was saying or maybe I should have worded this differently. But either way, just like I stated in another post about suppressors, whether we like it or not, how the general public ( and yes that includes police officers) perceive us does make a difference. You of all people should understand that.

    Like I said before, maybe simply talking to the police when they see us will help the cause. Once a police officer gets to know who you are and understand that you are a reasonable and law abiding citizen simply exercising your right to carry they are not going to stop you every time they see you. I am not saying that this applies to every officer. I am also not saying that you should not carry a recorder or video camera. I am simply stating an observation from what most of you consider the opposition. It just might be an observation we should all consider when posting.

    In fact people who open carry that develop a positive relation with police officers can be a great asset to our cause. I have known the chief for years and years. He thinks the same way you and I do and he was simply mentioning what he observed on this site. I think that is a fair observation.

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    I kind of agree with this guy. Video or audio device doesn't or can't lie.

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    When I spoke to the Chief in Chilton he told me he has looked at this website and with posters talking about trying to find someone to follow them around with a video recorder while they OC it seems to him that they are just trying to provoke an incident.
    I can see how a casual reader might get this perception if they dropped in the forum and read a few threads.

    I think if someone takes a camcorder holds it up to their head and walks around in an obvious fashion taking video of someone walking around with a gun,drawing attention to what they are doing, that would be odd and perhaps provoke an incident. ie, WHY is someone making video of a guy with a gun?

    On the other hand (and the reality of what we do when we use video) is that its done VERY discreetly so as NOT to make a scene, but rather to have documentation in case we face inappropriate police response. We all know that when its "our word against theirs" our word means nothing. "Video don't lie", and thats why we talk about taking video.

    I would suggest anyone who uses video documentation should do so discreetly.

    I personally don't even have an audio recorder yet. Never used one when I OC.

  6. #6
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    No, I don't think I missed the point and I stand by my statements. Ultimately the police work for and answer to the people of a community, not the reverse. If the chief believes that the use of a video or audio recording device is a sign that people wish to provoke an incident, then it is he who missed the point. If the chief is supportive of gun rights, that's great. But that doesn't prevent him from drawing an incorrect conclusion.

    I believe every person on here who OC's or hopes to OC in the future would very much prefer to do it without any sort of incident, much less to incite an incident. It's probably safe to assume that the majority of people would also much prefer to be able to legally carry concealed, even further reducing the chances of an incident.

    Think about it: we now have some rather prominent instances in Wisconsin where people were breaking no laws, yet were held at gunpoint and arrested by the police. We have ZERO instances that I know of where the police were provoked or harrassed by open carriers. It has been one-sided. In light of that, it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that somebody who OC's might want to do some CYA with a recording device.

    Like Hugh, I've never carried any sort of recording device. I don't have any plans to do so either. When I carry a gun on the street I have nothing beyond my ordinary dress except two things: a holster and gun. But I do not fault anyone who chooses to carry more, such as a voice recorder.

    J. Gleason, in your response to me you changed your original premise. How can you criticize me on the grounds of what the people on the street think when I was only responding to what the police chief thought? In your original post you told us what the chief thought. Now you're talking about what the people on the street might think. Your original post has nothing whatsoever about the opinions of the public, and everything about the chief's opinion. So, are you saying that the people on the street would also percieve the use of a recording device as an attempt to provoke an incident? Why would they? And how would they even know someone carried a voice recorder?

    You may believe, if you wish, that your opinion and my opinion does not matter but the public perception does matter. If your and my opinions are irrelevant, then why are we posting anything here? My opinion means quite a bit to me. And I try to at least respect the other opinions one here, even if I don't agree with them. I respect the chief's opinion, but I disagree with it and gave my reasons for doing so.

    This has nothing to do with me being an instructor. I instruct only with the goal of making people more knowledgeable and skillful in the use of firearms, tactics and a few basic principles of personal security with the aim of improving their chances of avoiding-- or when not avoidable-- surviving a threat of great violence. Everyone is left to exercise their individual judgement how much to be concerned with the public's perception of them. If a person is so concerned that they might be perceived negatively, and consequently decide not to keep a gun handy-- and then become a victim crime-- then so be it. They made their choice. But it was their choice, not mine, not yours, and hopefully not the state's. I might offer an opinion as to what I believe to be tactically sound, but people can make their own political decisions.

    Carrying a recording device is not tactically unsound when it comes to surviving the legal aftermath of a less than friendly encounter with the police. If you or the chief believe it is politically unsound to have a voice recorder, fine. But personally I'd leave that choice to the individual.

    I don't disagree with you about bringing supressors or long guns to the Madison rally. But there is a difference. The rally was NOT that individual's rally. If that person wishes to organize his own rally which welcomed supressors and long guns, or to hold his own one-man rally with an AK-47 outside the capitol, it's his right. Nobody said he could not do that. But the organizer and sponser of the proposed rally did not choose to have a rally that resembled an armed insurrection on the steps of the state capitol. That was her prerogative, and if it could not be honored, then that person ought not to attend.

    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Well to be honest I don't really carry to try and make the police look bad I carry because it is my right and like I said before, I have carried for just about 20 years now and never found the need for a camera or voice recorder. Not saying I will never have a need. But I still stand by my previous statement that if we can develop positive relations with the police that is in our favor.

    One final note, I did change my statement about the chief. The reason being because after his statement to me I was generalizing that there would probably be others that felt the same way. I did not mean to mislead anyone. Just trying to be real here that's all.

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    You don't have to try to make the Chilton police look bad, they do that all by themselves. Was Jesus trying to provoke an incident when he exercised his constitutionally protected right to carry or did the Chilton cops provoke the incident when they illegally harassed him and violated his constitutionally protected rights? Who's name is listed as the defendant in that lawsuit?



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    Max wrote:
    You don't have to try to make the Chilton police look bad, they do that all by themselves. Was Jesus trying to provoke an incident when he exercised his constitutionally protected right to carry or did the Chilton cops provoke the incident when they illegally harassed him and violated his constitutionally protected rights? Who's name is listed as the defendant in that lawsuit?

    Max, I agree with you on your statement.

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    Pointman wrote:
    I carry on a daily basis and try to be low-key. People rarely take a second look, and when they do I'm not sure if it's because I'm armed, I'm dressed well, or I'm just damn ugly.
    Uh, those are the three possibilities you want us to choose from Pointman?


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    Pointman wrote:
    or I'm just damn ugly.
    Yes! Very damn ugly!

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    Go into ebay. Search onwatch cameras. I have two. They work great. They are mini DVR's that record up to two hours of video and voice. Be careful though, theyshould only be used in "one-party consent" states where only one of the participants needs to be aware the recording is taking place.

    Wisconsin is a one-party consent state.

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