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Thread: Police encounter

  1. #1
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    As I usually do 3-4 times a week, this morningI went jogging through my neighborhood, OC`in of course. I was just finishing my normal route, when I noticed a shopping cart thrown on its side. I picked it up, and jogged it back to the Vons grocer nearby. SinceI wasin the vicinity jogged across the street to the wells fargo to hit up the ATM. I then stopped at a garage sale, and tried to browse while the homeowner asked me 20 questions about OC`in. Then I proceeded to start home and was about half way when I saw the black and white pulling up behind me. I gave him another look to be certain he didn't turn, and he didn't. He was 30 feet behind me soI put my hands up elbows bent upper arms parallel to the ground. the LEO got out of hiscar and stated,"don't be concerned I didn't witnessanything illegal, but if you don't mind keeping your hands up for just a minute I want to be sure everyone is safe". By this time two more black and whites had arrived, and my contact officer rushed toget on the radio and get the code out (I believe he was telling everyone it was cool) he asked me to put my hands behind my back, so he could put my firearm on the hood momentarily, I complied. then he asked me if it was loaded, I said yes and its hot.He then lifted my stainless Springfield 1911 ultra compact out ofthe holster, unloaded,andGENTLY placed it on the hood. he asked me what I was doing, and with the way things were proceeding, I thought it best to cooperate as long as it didn'tgo too far. I told him that I was exercising my body, and myrights. I cant recall his exact response to that, but it was positive.he then told me that a shopkeeper in the strip mall adjoining Vons had called. that there was a man with a gun and when they asked her she had told them thatI had done nothing wrong but she was scared because she had been robbed before.the officer asked me if I had ever been arrested? (no) is the gun registered to you? (yes) can Isee your Id and check?......big pause ..... hewas so relaxed about it I said sure. he checked it was cool he said "so your just an honest citizen out hereexercising your rights" in a cool way,I wonder if it was for the benefitof the other two officers thathad been standing approx 15 feet away the whole time (just hanging out not too concerned,) the stop took about ten minuets and the officer told me I could load up and go. then the young cop said "I am going to unload this magazine, we had guys take shots at us after we give them their gun back.I thought that was B.S. but was just glad he wasn't my contact through the deal. I collected my stuff and put the first one in the mag, loaded and cocked my pistol,enacted the safety and released the mag and started walking and loading.On the half mile walk to my house I saw one other officer and so I turned palms up and he gave me a very courteous nod. and I came home. feeling pretty good I would score them about an 8 out of ten from my limited knowledge. Dave

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    The first thing I tell police when I suspect they are going to try and disarm me is that I don't consent to them taking my weapon. I believe this often stops them from taking it and if they do so anyways it gives you an additional point of contention to describe in a complaint.

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    I feel you on that, however down here we have registration. it is unclear to me when LE has the right to check your registration.The factthey got a call might give them the right to check. Any help on that is appreciated. Dave

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    They do not have a right to detain you unless they have reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime that has occurred, is occurring presently, or is imminent.

    His statement about "don't be concerned...anything illegal" indicates he was not detaining you on suspicion of any crime.

    As the detainment was not lawful, neither was disarming you. Firearms are required to be registered, but "checking" registration does not form the basis of a lawful stop. Again, police must have reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime.

    Sure, your firearm may be unregistered... But, you might be a visitor. If you're in Clark County for 60 days or less, you're not required to register. Or, you might have just purchased the gun, in which case you have 72 hours to register. And even if those exceptions weren't there, "you're papers please" is a saying that should have died at the end of WWII.

    Consider, it's illegal for a felon to be in possession of a firearm. Do the police have a right to stop you to make sure you're not a felon? No, they do not. Otherwise, you'd probably see them at the door to gun ranges checking IDs.

    You can't really argue with the result of the stop - only 5 minutes. Sounds like you got lucky that your contact officer was mostly knowledgeable, versus the ignorant one who unloaded your magazine. I'm glad you reloaded your weapon in front of him.

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    Had another thought.

    Others can evaluate your decisions from the comfort of their computer keyboard but when you're staring at three cruisers and your adrenaline is pumping, you have to make real-time decisions. BUT...

    What if their computer was screwed up and had you listed as a felon? Or what if someone fat-fingered the serial number on your gun when they entered it in the database and your gun's actual serial number was UNREGISTERED?

    Your polite consent and agreement, because you are a law-abiding citizen, just got you locked up. You've done nothing wrong, the error is entirely theirs, but you're being booked into the detention center until they fix their paperwork.

    What if they said "There was a homicide and this was the type of gun used. Can we take it back to the station to test fire it to exclude it as the weapon?" I know, entirely unlikely, but at what point do you say NO? The longer the interview, the more suspicious you look by refusing to answer any more questions.

    ALWAYS refuse to answer questions from the start. Keep repeating you do not consent to being detained and asking if you're free to leave. This is not an a$$hole move, no matter what the cops tell you. This is a patriotic move. Your rights have been taken from you, and you must take them back, one small step at a time.

    Tim

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    timf343 wrote:
    They do not have a right to detain you unless they have reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime that has occurred, is occurring presently, or is imminent.
    Cite(s), please.

    Obviously many of us know the answer and the cites. In that he asked the question, he doesn't know them and would benefit.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    NRS 171.123 Temporary detention by peace officer of person suspected of criminal behavior or of violating conditions of parole or probation: Limitations. 1. Any peace officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime.
    2. Any peace officer may detain any person the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has violated or is violating the conditions of his parole or probation.
    3. The officer may detain the person pursuant to this section only to ascertain his identity and the suspicious circumstances surrounding his presence abroad. Any person so detained shall identify himself, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any peace officer.
    4. A person must not be detained longer than is reasonably necessary to effect the purposes of this section, and in no event longer than 60 minutes. The detention must not extend beyond the place or the immediate vicinity of the place where the detention was first effected, unless the person is arrested.

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    timf343 wrote:
    NRS 171.123 Temporary detention by peace officer of person suspected of criminal behavior or of violating conditions of parole or probation: Limitations. 1. Any peace officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime.
    2. Any peace officer may detain any person the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has violated or is violating the conditions of his parole or probation.
    3. The officer may detain the person pursuant to this section only to ascertain his identity and the suspicious circumstances surrounding his presence abroad. Any person so detained shall identify himself, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any peace officer.
    4. A person must not be detained longer than is reasonably necessary to effect the purposes of this section, and in no event longer than 60 minutes. The detention must not extend beyond the place or the immediate vicinity of the place where the detention was first effected, unless the person is arrested.
    Yes. Thank you.

    Also, US Supreme Court opinions. A very important one on this subject is Terry vs Ohio:

    ...And, in justifying the particular intrusion, the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion. [n18]...

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Thanks for all the help. I get the Idea and your right. I got stopped under the suspicion of doing nothing wrong. And thats bad for our freedoms I will study some more and be a little more prepared next time. as I dont do police stops all day every day, in the meantime I have to go jogging. thanks again Dave

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    I will speak only for myself.

    In the situation described, I might spend a moment, before responding to the officer's first contact, thinking about what else I had to do that day. If I had nothing much on tap I might ask if I was being detained and if so why. I might refuse permission to take my firearm for "officer saftey" or to give consent to a serial number check.

    I might spend some time in custody or I might just walk away. Seems to me that it is very easy to TALK about all of this, sitting here in the comfort of my home at a computer keyboard, but if I had something else to do, or just didn't feel like going through all of the hassel, I might just cooperate.

    YMMV

    Ken

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    Ken-

    I agree it's very easy to debate this from the comfort/safety of our homes, and you never really know how you'll handle the situation until you find yourself in it. Having been unlawfully detained myself (see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum37/23008.html in the NH forum), I can attest to the fact that being uncooperative made my stop 20 minutes instead of the 5 minutes described by Dave.

    If refusing to cooperate results in a 20 minute detention, but cooperating results in a 5 minute detention, why not cooperate? Because the detention never should have happened in the first place. If we simply give in and cooperate in order to save ourselves a little bit of time, we've conditioned the police that it's OK to detain people illegally, and we've conditioned ourselves to tolerate it.

    Since it is a matter of personal preference, I will continue to be uncooperative at each and every police encounter in the future, no matter the circumstances. If refusing to answer questions gets me arrested, either I've done something to be arrested for (in which case talking will not get me out of it), or I've been illegally arrested. In the case of the latter, I'll just have to hope the laws protecting me from civil rights violations and unlawful detention/arrest have teeth.

    Tim

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    Tim,

    I agree with you completely.

    With many years of experience working with, and training, horses I know that it is always right to insist that the horse comply with my behavior requirements.

    IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT. Years ago I would just go ahead and do that, no matter what. The only problem is that you can get badly hurt doing that at the wrong time, even though it is the right thing to do.

    Now that I am older, and I get hurt more easily, I often look for a better place to get into a disagreement with that 1,200 pound animal

    Ken



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    DON`T TREAD ON ME wrote:
    I feel you on that, however down here we have registration. it is unclear to me when LE has the right to check your registration.The factthey got a call might give them the right to check. Any help on that is appreciated. Dave
    When in doubt, it's always best to verbally inform the LEO that you "do not consent" to being stopped or to anything he wants to do. That way, if you end up in any legal problems as a result of the stop, your attorney may have ammunition to get any evidence or the stop itself thrown out of court if the LEO did anything illegal or violative of your rights.

    If you cooperate, on the other hand, and fail to clearly articulate your refusal of consent, then any action taken by the LEO will likely be viewed by the court as lawful, since they acted with your voluntary cooperation (consent). You can't claim that your rights were violated if you waived those rights, just because you were intimidated by the uniform.

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    spiritof76 wrote:
    SNIP If you cooperate, on the other hand, and fail to clearly articulate your refusal of consent, then any action taken by the LEO will likely be viewed by the court as lawful, since they acted with your voluntary cooperation (consent). You can't claim that your rights were violated if you waived those rights, just because you were intimidated by the uniform.
    +1

    See the Busted video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    DON`T TREAD ON ME wrote:
    As I usually do 3-4 times a week, this morningI went jogging through my neighborhood, OC`in of course. I was just finishing my normal route, when I noticed a shopping cart thrown on its side. I picked it up, and jogged it back to the Vons grocer nearby. SinceI wasin the vicinity jogged across the street to the wells fargo to hit up the ATM. I then stopped at a garage sale, and tried to browse while the homeowner asked me 20 questions about OC`in. Then I proceeded to start home and was about half way when I saw the black and white pulling up behind me. I gave him another look to be certain he didn't turn, and he didn't. He was 30 feet behind me soI put my hands up elbows bent upper arms parallel to the ground. the LEO got out of hiscar and stated,"don't be concerned I didn't witnessanything illegal, but if you don't mind keeping your hands up for just a minute I want to be sure everyone is safe". By this time two more black and whites had arrived, and my contact officer rushed toget on the radio and get the code out (I believe he was telling everyone it was cool) he asked me to put my hands behind my back, so he could put my firearm on the hood momentarily, I complied. then he asked me if it was loaded, I said yes and its hot.He then lifted my stainless Springfield 1911 ultra compact out ofthe holster, unloaded,andGENTLY placed it on the hood. he asked me what I was doing, and with the way things were proceeding, I thought it best to cooperate as long as it didn'tgo too far. I told him that I was exercising my body, and myrights. I cant recall his exact response to that, but it was positive.he then told me that a shopkeeper in the strip mall adjoining Vons had called. that there was a man with a gun and when they asked her she had told them thatI had done nothing wrong but she was scared because she had been robbed before.the officer asked me if I had ever been arrested? (no) is the gun registered to you? (yes) can Isee your Id and check?......big pause ..... hewas so relaxed about it I said sure. he checked it was cool he said "so your just an honest citizen out hereexercising your rights" in a cool way,I wonder if it was for the benefitof the other two officers thathad been standing approx 15 feet away the whole time (just hanging out not too concerned,) the stop took about ten minuets and the officer told me I could load up and go. then the young cop said "I am going to unload this magazine, we had guys take shots at us after we give them their gun back.I thought that was B.S. but was just glad he wasn't my contact through the deal. I collected my stuff and put the first one in the mag, loaded and cocked my pistol,enacted the safety and released the mag and started walking and loading.On the half mile walk to my house I saw one other officer and so I turned palms up and he gave me a very courteous nod. and I came home. feeling pretty good I would score them about an 8 out of ten from my limited knowledge. Dave
    From the first bold section on it looks like it was a concentual encounter. As the OP cooperated and consented to each and every thing asked of him by the police.

    There was no 4th amendment violation. The cops can ask you to sing the national anthem while doing backflips and wearing a clown wig. If you say "Okay" then they haven't violated anything.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    From the first bold section on it looks like it was a concentual encounter. As the OP cooperated and consented to each and every thing asked of him by the police.

    There was no 4th amendment violation. The cops can ask you to sing the national anthem while doing backflips and wearing a clown wig. If you say "Okay" then they haven't violated anything.
    Good point. Above I used the word "unlawful" but that was really the incorrect word. As it was consensual, there was nothing illegal about the officers actions. I was trying to say there was nothing in the law that compelled your compliance.

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    yes I complied, and am learning alot. these officers train on this stuff and share their tricks etc. all the time. and experience means a lot. so now I have had an experience and I have learned and the next time I want it to be just as cool, howeverI am going to start bringing my rights into the situation. (Im still a single parent and a small buisness owner) I called today and got my event # and they have the file waiting for me at the frontcounter. it will cost me $38.00 and theinfo for the caller will be blacked outbut the officers names and notes etc. will be in there I will share that info if it can help anyone. Dave

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    $38???

    Last time I ordered a copy of a police report, it was only $5 or $10 I think.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    SNIP...The cops can ask you to sing the national anthem while doing backflips and wearing a clown wig...
    Has Grapeshot been posting his home videos again? :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
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    timf343 wrote:
    $38???

    Last time I ordered a copy of a police report, it was only $5 or $10 I think.
    yeah i thought it was high.. but she told me that its an "event" report and thats why I get it @ russel and cameron and not metro downtown. if it sucks I will let you know so we all dont wast our ammo money. Dave

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    Sounds very odd. You're supposed to be able to pick up event reports at any metro substation.

    Plus, the standard fee (if it's not a flat rate like $5 or $10) is $1 per page. Is the event report 38 pages? Just seems like such an odd number.

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    Please clear up nv law for me.if I am just out walking or in a store do I have to produce Id?

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    Vegassteve wrote:
    Please clear up nv law for me.if I am just out walking or in a store do I have to produce Id?
    In fact, one of the US Supreme Court's decisions on this subject comes from Nevada. Here are some quotes. Pay particular attention to whether it is talking about an ID document, or identifying oneself, as in perhaps verbally. Best to read the entire decision from beginning to end. You will get a more complete picture, and the answer to your question. The decision is called Hiibel vs 6th Judicial Ct.

    ...(“f there are articulable facts supporting a reasonable suspicion that a person has committed a criminal offense, that person may be stopped in order to identify him, to question him briefly, or to detain him briefly while attempting to obtain additional information”); Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972) (“A brief stop of a suspicious individual, in order to determine his identity or to maintain the status quo momentarily while obtaining more information, may be most reasonable in light of the facts known to the officer at the time”)...

    ...The California law in Kolender required a suspect to give an officer “‘credible and reliable’” identification when asked to identify himself. Id., at 360. The Court held that the statute was void because it provided no standard for determining what a suspect must do to comply with it, resulting in “‘virtually unrestrained power to arrest and charge persons with a violation.’”...

    ...A state law requiring a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a valid Terry stop is consistent with
    Fourth Amendment prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures...(emphasis added)

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html





    The direct answer is that you cannot be compelled to produce ID. However, if the state, in this case Nevada,has a stop-and-identify statute AND the officer has reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that you are connected to a crime, then you would have to comply.

    That's the legal angle more or less. But here is how it works on the ground. You see, you will never be able to know with complete certainty at the time of the encounter whether the officer has RAS or not. Just because you know you were not doing anything does not mean the officer did not observe some circumstance or group of circumstances that a court has already ruled provide RAS of a crime. Also, for example, you would not necessarily know whether some anti-gunner called 911 and lied that you were handling your gun, acting threatening, or whatever.

    So, if youare thinking about refusing to provide ID and/oridentify yourself verbally, you would want to be very careful about how you approach it, if Nevada still has a stop-and-identify statute.

    Think through on all the angles. For example, "If I refuse to provide ID after an LEO says 'Lemme see some ID', can the LEO later claim he didn't demand to see ID,lying to the judge that he only asked me to identify myself."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    You see, you will never be able to know with complete certainty at the time of the encounter whether the officer has RAS or not. [...]

    So, if youare thinking about refusing to provide ID and/oridentify yourself verbally, you would want to be very careful about how you approach it, if Nevada still has a stop-and-identify statute.
    Right. If you are stopped in NV, under Hiibel you pretty much HAVE TO give your name. It's terrible but that's what the Supreme Court ruled. That being the case, there's not much difference between giving your name and ID nowadays, since all records are computerized anyway.

    You don't HAVE TO show an actual ID document such as your driver's license, but since your name accomplishes the same thing ... you almost might as well, to appease the officer. It doesn't make much of a difference in any practical way.

    The SCOTUS has effectively upheld Nazi style identification laws. Personally I think that the right to exist and travel the Earth anonymously is a God-given right which is, or ought to be, secured for all human beings by the Ninth Amendment:

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
    But the Bill of Rights is ignored more and more with each day that passes.

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    timf343 wrote:
    Ken-

    I agree it's very easy to debate this from the comfort/safety of our homes, and you never really know how you'll handle the situation until you find yourself in it.* Having been unlawfully detained myself (see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum37/23008.html in the NH forum), I can attest to the fact that being uncooperative made my stop 20 minutes instead of the 5 minutes described by Dave.

    If refusing to cooperate results in a 20 minute detention, but cooperating results in a 5 minute detention, why not cooperate?* Because the detention never should have happened in the first place.* If we simply give in and cooperate in order to save ourselves a little bit of time, we've conditioned the police that it's OK to detain people illegally, and we've conditioned ourselves to tolerate it.

    Since it is a matter of personal preference, I will continue to be uncooperative at each and every police encounter in the future, no matter the circumstances.* If refusing to answer questions gets me arrested, either I've done something to be arrested for (in which case talking will not get me out of it), or I've been illegally arrested.* In the case of the latter, I'll just have to hope the laws protecting me from civil rights violations and unlawful detention/arrest have teeth.

    Tim
    If Rosa Parks would have just done what she was told and gotten in the back of the bus, she wouldn't have been inconvenienced by the arrest for sitting in a seat reserved for the exclusive use of white folk.

    That's how I see this movement, plain and simple. I have a lot of respect for Timf343 and others who are brave enough to not sit in the back of the bus, as it were, it's the only thing that can possibly advance our civil rights cause.

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