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Thread: Was denied service and told I would have to leave DOL Office

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    I stopped in at the Smokey Point Drivers licence office today to get my Enhance DL for travel to Canada. As I got there I was sure it was going to be a good day... as I spotted a Unicorn! Against one of the back walls was a young woman openly carrying a sidearm. I didn't get to chat with her, but it's always nice to see someone else exercising their rights.


    Of course being a Saturday, lines were long so I took a seat, and started reading a magazine (Gun News). After sitting there for about an hour I was approaced by the supervisor (who would NOT give me her name) and told I could not have a gun inside the Drivers Licence office and I would have to leave. She told me that she checked with Olympia to verify her response.

    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.

    I beleive this is in direct violation of state law and intend to file a complaint, as soon as I figure out who to compain to and exactly what to say.


    I should add that as I left, I noticed that the woman that was also carrying a firearm was no longer there. I do not know if she left on her own accord or was told to leave.

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    You were waiting not causing any problems. She is dead wrong. You and I know of the places were you can "not carry a firearm" The dol is not off limits! Go back there and stand in line like any free man. She will back down with she calls the police.

    This is not a shopping mall were they can have you leave and you must comply.
    This is a public place. State owned like a park or library.

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    If she refused to give her name, how do you know she wasn't some random nut? Perhaps you should have insisted that she call the police, so that you could file a complaint against her for stalking and harassment.


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    Interestingly enough, I was at the Smokey Point DOL as well today. Just like you, I spotted a Unicorn! However, it wasn't any woman at the back of the lobby, it was in fact, you.

    I was with my girlfriend, actually sitting a couple of seats down in the same row as yourself. Neither of us noticed your sidearm until the DOL employee came and made a fuss about it. Prior to that, as I was on the other side of my girl, her head was blocking my view. Oddly, she never noticed until I pointed it out.

    I can verify that you were in fact waiting patiently like most of the other people there. I do hope you file a complaint with the appropriate authority - if you need a witness, shoot me a message

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    If she refused to give her name, how do you know she wasn't some random nut? Perhaps you should have insisted that she call the police, so that you could file a complaint against her for stalking and harassment.
    Because I saw her behind the counter, and have encountered this person before. She's a stickler for the rules.... so I will be too!

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    A state office violating State Law! Above the Law? What is the legality of someone being thrown out of a stateoffice while conducting businesswithin the law of the State?Could a person when asked to leave step outside the door and call police with the complaint that theDOLhad just committed a crime, violated your rights or something to that affect.

    Although I did'nt happen in this encounter, but, I think if they would sick the LAWMAN on you when you are not trespassingthen we should be able to call the LAW on them, right?Not suggesting Privite Proporty of course.



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    Go back...let them call the police, then ask the officer to arrest her for criminal violation of RCW's 9A.36.070, 9A.80.010, and 42.20.100 as well as 18USC sec 242.

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    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    If she refused to give her name, how do you know she wasn't some random nut? Perhaps you should have insisted that she call the police, so that you could file a complaint against her for stalking and harassment.
    Because I saw her behind the counter, and have encountered this person before. She's a stickler for the rules.... so I will be too!
    Did you ask to speak with her supervisor?

    Never settle for the word of a line worker, especially if your civil rights are being violated.
    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
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    Funny, I was interrogated at the tacoma DOL by one of the workers after I signed my new license with my name followed by "under protest". Asked me if I was a dangerous right-wing, gun-nut, or something... told him I was just tired of being forced to ask permission to excersize my rights, and left it at that.
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    bugly wrote:
    Funny, I was interrogated at the tacoma DOL by one of the workers after I signed my new license with my name followed by "under protest". Asked me if I was a dangerous right-wing, gun-nut, or something... told him I was just tired of being forced to ask permission to excersize my rights, and left it at that.
    Isn't it amazing how much the difference between "privilege" and "right" has been blurred with the general public?
    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
    -Sarah Hoyt

    "America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
    -Claire Wolfe

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    Reminds me when I was told that I was armed and dangerous and I told the guy I was only armed.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Go back...let them call the police, then ask the officer to arrest her for criminal violation of RCW's 9A.36.070, 9A.80.010, and 42.20.100 as well as 18USC sec 242.
    You sure do spout those a lot. Tell us all how successful you have been with your own advice.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Haven't had the opportunity yet.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Haven't had the opportunity yet.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFF_h...e=channel_page

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    I very much doubt she "called Olympia" on your gun, but is making crap up on the fly.

    Lacey also offers the enhanced DL so you could always try there, and also be real close to the main DOL office if they pull that stunt again. Perfect for making complaints:P

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    Yes.

    And that incident is what led me to do the research where I learned about those criminal violations. Could I go through the process of trying to get a criminal indictment after the fact based on the video? Absolutely. Do I think the PA would actually charge a group of 'only ones' for these violations? I highly doubt it......particularly since the criminals in that incident were in fact the very people supposedly employed to 'prevent' crime. Short of showing up with an FBI field agent in tow and having them arrested by him for a repeat their performance in his presence, I have little doubt that nothing would ever come of any criminal complaints field against those deputies.

    It is, however, my opinion that an 'in the moment' arrest of the offender (committing said criminal violations in the presence of the officer) is a more viable solution....even if one need call in LE from a different jurisdiction/agency (city/county/state/fed) on an LEO.

    If the responding LEOs refuse to arrest, then initiate a citizens arrest in their presence and have them take the violator into custody. This of course would require a lot more direct involvement on your part to secure an actual indictment, but it can still serve the purpose of making it abuntantly clear to the violator that what they are doing is a CRIMINAL ACT, and they are NOT immune.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.
    If I read it correctly, the AG's opinion on preemption states that one can't be tresspassed when going about a lawful activity. The DOL offices are public areas, not the private property of the employees working there. If one of them attempts to deny you the right to go about a legal activity there, and threatens you with arrest for doing so, DO file a complaint. Don't wait for them to call the local PD or State Patrol, do so yourself. Would be good to have a copy of applicable State Law on preemption and coercion. (at least the references). This crap won't change by just talking about it. It will take complaints to the DOL and possibly the AG's office to get these "government drones" to realize they work for the public rather than the other way around.

    FWIW, I have to go into the Smokey Point office once This crap won't change a year for a copy of my driver's record. Need it for my part time job. I have carried every time with no attempt to conceal and no issues.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    NavyLT wrote:
    I've open carried twice in the Oak Harbor DOL without any mention of my firearm.¬* Once to obtain my WA state ID Card, and a subsequent visit to deliver an email from Olympia to them explaining to them that they were full of you-know-what when they told me my WA state ID Card would invalidate my Wyoming driver's license.¬* The jerks behind the counter were none to friendly with me, but no mention of my gun.

    As posted above, yes, let them call the cops.¬* Or, perhaps, you should have called the police yourself or state trooper's office and seen if they could do anything about you being refused service on the spot.

    You sure do spout those a lot. Tell us all how successful you have been with your own advice.
    Joerocket,

    During my MWAG encounter with the Oak Harbor Police, I essentially did the same thing.¬* I stated to the uniformed police officer, "If you think that I am breaking any law, then arrest me now."¬* It worked wonders, he knew I wasn't going to bow to his bluffing and that is what, for the most part, brought the encounter to an end.
    And your encounter was extremely close to being coercion. Being threatened with the police is hardly coercion or Official misconduct. You used reason and intelligence instead of empty handed threats as are being suggested here.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    NavyLT wrote:

    Joerocket,

    During my MWAG encounter with the Oak Harbor Police, I essentially did the same thing. I stated to the uniformed police officer, "If you think that I am breaking any law, then arrest me now." It worked wonders, he knew I wasn't going to bow to his bluffing and that is what, for the most part, brought the encounter to an end.
    Kind of the same happened to me last year in Kent with a couple of bicycle cops. They wanted me to go to my truck to get my CPL so that I could conceal and I told them "No". They kept asking me, "So you're saying you won't go get your CPL so you can conceal?" And I kept saying "no" so they finally just left, quick as that. It seemed to me that they were trying to use "the power of speech" to get me to do something they wanted me to do, that I didn't want to do. They knew I was in the right and wasn't going to back down, so they gave up.
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    amlevin wrote:
    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.
    If I read it correctly, the AG's opinion on preemption states that one can't be tresspassed when going about a lawful activity. The DOL offices are public areas, not the private property of the employees working there. If one of them attempts to deny you the right to go about a legal activity there, and threatens you with arrest for doing so, DO file a complaint. Don't wait for them to call the local PD or State Patrol, do so yourself. Would be good to have a copy of applicable State Law on preemption and coercion. (at least the references). This crap won't change by just talking about it. It will take complaints to the DOL and possibly the AG's office to get these "government drones" to realize they work for the public rather than the other way around.

    FWIW, I have to go into the Smokey Point office once This crap won't change a year for a copy of my driver's record. Need it for my part time job. I have carried every time with no attempt to conceal and no issues.
    Here's a conundrum for you: In Ferndale the DOL office is located inside the Cost Cutter market, where I have been kicked out for OC'ing. So how would this apply if one goes to that DOL and while there on DOL business the Cost Cutter manager trespasses me? Strictly a hypothetical case but not beyond possibility. Any feedback on that?

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    Richard6218 wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.
    If I read it correctly, the AG's opinion on preemption states that one can't be tresspassed when going about a lawful activity. The DOL offices are public areas, not the private property of the employees working there. If one of them attempts to deny you the right to go about a legal activity there, and threatens you with arrest for doing so, DO file a complaint. Don't wait for them to call the local PD or State Patrol, do so yourself. Would be good to have a copy of applicable State Law on preemption and coercion. (at least the references). This crap won't change by just talking about it. It will take complaints to the DOL and possibly the AG's office to get these "government drones" to realize they work for the public rather than the other way around.

    FWIW, I have to go into the Smokey Point office once This crap won't change a year for a copy of my driver's record. Need it for my part time job. I have carried every time with no attempt to conceal and no issues.
    Here's a conundrum for you: In Ferndale the DOL office is located inside the Cost Cutter market, where I have been kicked out for OC'ing. So how would this apply if one goes to that DOL and while there on DOL business the Cost Cutter manager trespasses me? Strictly a hypothetical case but not beyond possibility. Any feedback on that?
    Do you have to cross Cost Cutter market property to get there or does the DOL have an external door? If there is an external door, then I think that since the DOL would be leasing that part of the building the property rights would fall to them and not to Cost Cutters. Therefore you wouldn't be able to be trespassed while going about your business in a legal fashion.

    Same idea as Safeco field or renting a home. The person who is renting or leasing assumes the property rights.

    IANAL
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    kenshin wrote:
    Richard6218 wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.
    If I read it correctly, the AG's opinion on preemption states that one can't be tresspassed when going about a lawful activity. The DOL offices are public areas, not the private property of the employees working there. If one of them attempts to deny you the right to go about a legal activity there, and threatens you with arrest for doing so, DO file a complaint. Don't wait for them to call the local PD or State Patrol, do so yourself. Would be good to have a copy of applicable State Law on preemption and coercion. (at least the references). This crap won't change by just talking about it. It will take complaints to the DOL and possibly the AG's office to get these "government drones" to realize they work for the public rather than the other way around.

    FWIW, I have to go into the Smokey Point office once This crap won't change a year for a copy of my driver's record. Need it for my part time job. I have carried every time with no attempt to conceal and no issues.
    Here's a conundrum for you: In Ferndale the DOL office is located inside the Cost Cutter market, where I have been kicked out for OC'ing. So how would this apply if one goes to that DOL and while there on DOL business the Cost Cutter manager trespasses me? Strictly a hypothetical case but not beyond possibility. Any feedback on that?
    Do you have to cross Cost Cutter market property to get there or does the DOL have an external door? If there is an external door, then I think that since the DOL would be leasing that part of the building the property rights would fall to them and not to Cost Cutters. Therefore you wouldn't be able to be trespassed while going about your business in a legal fashion.

    Same idea as Safeco field or renting a home. The person who is renting or leasing assumes the property rights.

    IANAL

    Ferndale Cost Cutter Foods Licensing is an agent, not an actual DOL office.


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    BIll98501 wrote:
    kenshin wrote:
    Richard6218 wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    I tried to convince her otherwise, but it was a loosing battle, and rather than be trespassed and have the state patrol called, I left.
    If I read it correctly, the AG's opinion on preemption states that one can't be tresspassed when going about a lawful activity. The DOL offices are public areas, not the private property of the employees working there. If one of them attempts to deny you the right to go about a legal activity there, and threatens you with arrest for doing so, DO file a complaint. Don't wait for them to call the local PD or State Patrol, do so yourself. Would be good to have a copy of applicable State Law on preemption and coercion. (at least the references). This crap won't change by just talking about it. It will take complaints to the DOL and possibly the AG's office to get these "government drones" to realize they work for the public rather than the other way around.

    FWIW, I have to go into the Smokey Point office once This crap won't change a year for a copy of my driver's record. Need it for my part time job. I have carried every time with no attempt to conceal and no issues.
    Here's a conundrum for you: In Ferndale the DOL office is located inside the Cost Cutter market, where I have been kicked out for OC'ing. So how would this apply if one goes to that DOL and while there on DOL business the Cost Cutter manager trespasses me? Strictly a hypothetical case but not beyond possibility. Any feedback on that?
    Do you have to cross Cost Cutter market property to get there or does the DOL have an external door? If there is an external door, then I think that since the DOL would be leasing that part of the building the property rights would fall to them and not to Cost Cutters. Therefore you wouldn't be able to be trespassed while going about your business in a legal fashion.

    Same idea as Safeco field or renting a home. The person who is renting or leasing assumes the property rights.

    IANAL

    Ferndale Cost Cutter Foods Licensing is an agent, not an actual DOL office.
    Makes sense. Come to think of it, as independent agents they charge a fee for processing thing like vehicle renewals. (Better to just mail the payment in in time and avoid the fee.) Also, the answer to the property question is that the DOL facility is inside Cost Cutter, so access is solely through Cost Cutter property.

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    I understand you were not breaking any laws but I believe it is still in the right of businesses to have the right to ban weapons if they so chose. (example kitsap mall) However if so I believe they are also obligated to post this visibly and clearly. I know to if a business asks you to leave and you do not you can then be charged with criminal trespassing. Not to take sides or say you did something wrong just two things that are always in the back of my mind when I OC
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