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Thread: Next Generation

  1. #1
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    I do not worry so much about today or even the near future, say the next 10 to 20 years. I feel there is still enough people who feel passionately about our rights that they are willing to fight for and keep them.
    My children know how to handle every handgun and rifle that I own, SAFELY!! They have been taught the rules and have seen what a bullet does to a living creature (deer hunting).


    Recently my tallest child had a friend stay the night, and I came home as usual from running some errands and of course was carrying under my motorcycle jacket. I instantly saw the shock in the visitors face when I took off my jacket. I hadn’t even thought about how she would react. I am in my home and its what I wear all the time. My wife and my children all appreciate the fact that I am so diligent in my carrying, especially in today’s world.

    My tallest child’s friend later told her that she had never seen that before, a person carrying a gun on their hip (I usually carry the S&W – M&P compact 9mm in a brown leather thumb break holster which is molded to the shape and size of the gun). I have had several conversations with my children who are entering high school next year. At their early age they are able to distinguish between Liberal’s and Conservatives and Democrats vs. Republicans. My children already have a strong opinion of support for firearms and understand their rights.

    Returning to the visiting child though, she knew nothing. I have had many chats with my kids about their friends, their teachers and their friends’ parents. The message that kids are getting today is “Guns are Bad and should not be carried”. I base this on the onslaught of negative advertising by the schools – in the schools.

    If you haven’t visited a junior high school lately, you might be surprised at the signs you will see. Ranging from “if you see or hear of a gun, report it to the teacher”, “reward given for turning in a student with a gun” and of course “NO Guns or Weapons Allowed” signs. Obviously there is safety at issue, and so there is a certain amount of

    lee-way given to the schools and their signs.

    My children also tell me that the teachers also demonize guns and weapons. I think the impression that is given, at least in my kids eyes, is that guns are bad and only military and police should have them, also, only bad guys carry guns. There is no gun safety courses offered in schools, nor is there much information given about our constitutional rights (please do not say its in the curriculum and must be taught. I am very involved in my children’s homework life and I have not seen anything on the 2nd amendment).

    The current mood in this country is that guns are bad and all we hear of is how many people some idiot shot and killed. There is almost no mention of the incidents that people were saved because they carried and owned a firearm. Even the few articles that are written about those positive incidents are at the back of the magazine.

    I guess I should sum up my message. We are encountering difficulty maintaining our rights given us by the 2nd Amendment, I think that in the next generation it won’t be so difficult to see those laws against guns to pass. Hunting is a dying and oh so limited experience. I know there are still hunters and I am one of them, but look at the children, they are not hunting. And yes I know there are some, but not enough to replace this generation of “activists”. Even the areas to hunt are drying up to land development and private property. I see more “No Hunting” signs then I do animals in some areas.

    My point is, this battle will not be lost today, but the battle will be lost in 20 to 30years from now! Unless we can somehow counter the current mood of this country and cement our gun rights I think we are headed for disaster. The simple notion of OC is questioned and frowned upon (yes I know it’s a right and legal) by so many people, and those opinions are being passed down to their children. I think there are going to be far more Anti-gun people or people who just do what they are told then there will be gun owners in the future. Children today are docile and easily manipulated, also, they are inactive and uneducated about our basic rights.

    We need more then a few picnics and individuals carrying openly in a few cities and towns.


    Time is going to kill this cause and Right.

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    Funny you should mention the curriculum taught in the schools. Back when my stepson was in the 5th grade, he came home with a "copy" of the Constitution, of course, I had to read it to see if all was well, and well, it wasn't even close! There were not only typographical errors, but the wording was changed so everybody could understand it. Wasn't that nice of them/ Sure! It seems that the first Amdt. allows saying anything you want, anywhere you want, churches have no rights, because they aren't "given" rights by the constitution (sic), and there was no mention of redress of grievance whatsoever...
    Second Amdt was really well translated. It said we have the right to be protected by a military force and that they and the police have the right to bear arms.
    I stopped reading at that point, took the next day off work and went to my boy's school and demanded the kids be taught the truth. (I also made mention of the improper flags being flown, you know, the ones with the gold fringe around them which are only allowed by Army regulations during parades...) Believe it or not, the teacher agreed with me and said he was tired of teaching the "dumbed down" version. He went to Kinko's and copied the actual Constitution from Black's Law Dictionary and gave all the students a copy. (relief)
    I visited the school to talk to the teacher a few weeks later about my kid's grades and such (parent/teacher conf.) and noticed the fringed flag was gone from his room and a proper flag was flown, (properly faced, also). Sometimes it takes getting involved.
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

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    I went to a liberal high school that had where the teachers were completely free to try more theoretical teaching styles. Issues regarding the constitution were never told to us to mean one thing or another we were taught to interpret things for ourselves (to use a brains).

    I find schools these days don't really allow students to explore Ideas on their own and that's whats crippling America, indoctrination no matter what side it's on is wrong we don't need to tell kids that the 2a is one way or another we need to let them find meaning it it for themselves.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Thats why my kids went to a private Christian school.My 16 yr old daughter lives in Ca.She is homeschooled by a Christian homeschool program.They are all doing well.2 of my daughters are now in management for big companies and able to be dicerning in who is hired .My youngest has and never will see the inside of a public school.According to my ex parents down there were even threatened with penealtys if they took their kids out of school during a so called gay studies week.I will not have my kids involved in that crap.Someone even told her that she isn't getting a well rounded education.The school system has taken everything that was once considered wrong and made it right ,a$$ backward from the way it should be.They teach revisionist history makeing out that we as Americans have done wrong.Its insane....

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Best way to beat this particular situation is to get as many court cases in front of the Supreme Court as possible in regards to the 2nd amendment and carry.

    The Heller decision was decided last year. The best thing a parent who has children in public schools can do is to read your children's textbooks, if they have pre-Heller statement of "collective rights", raise holy hell. Use the State Education Code to your advantange. Many of us OC'ers know about the gun laws of this states like the back of our hands, but do you have the same knowledge of the education code? Some codify requirements of what to teach students, including truthful information in education.

    Consider this similarly to the situation with Brown v. Board of Education. I'm sure there were plenty of places that still had textbooks that Plessy v. Ferguson was good law for years after Brown was decided.

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    DEROS72 wrote:
    Thats why my kids went to a private Christian school.My 16 yr old daughter lives in Ca.She is homeschooled by a Christian homeschool program.They are all doing well.2 of my daughters are now in management for big companies and able to be dicerning in who is hired .My youngest has and never will see the inside of a public school.According to my ex parents down there were even threatened with penealtys if they took their kids out of school during a so called gay studies week.I will not have my kids involved in that crap.Someone even told her that she isn't getting a well rounded education.The school system has taken everything that was once considered wrong and made it right ,a$$ backward from the way it should be.They teach revisionist history makeing out that we as Americans have done wrong.Its insane....
    I would point out that there is an inherent hypocrisy in your statements. In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson stated "All men are created equal." Why you willingly discriminate against gays and the study of their struggle for equal rights, while enjoying the privileges of your own religion confounds me. Perhaps this comes from being "through the looking glass", but my experience with private Christian education left a horrible taste in my mouth (attended CSOD (first hit on google) from 5th - 8th grade). Teaching bigotry, disgust with rational thought, exclusionary policy, et cetera is the exact same thing that is problematic in the revisionist viewing of the 2nd amendment as a collective right.

    I would also disagree that the school system has taken everything that was once considered wrong and made it right. If you mean that education leads to various forms of tolerance, I would agree, happily. Good schools and teachers (of which I had many more in public than private school) respect arguments from reason and rational discourse. Instead of saying "I believe this is the truth, and I refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary", education allows someone to say "I think this way currently, but you've put forth pretty compelling evidence that the position could be wrong. I need to revise my theory and reform my thoughts, because I've obviously not weighed all sides." Teaching people that the right to keep and bear arms does not endanger, but empowers the populus requires that second form of reason. Inherently dogmatic and bigoted teaching cannot hope to do that, as it eschews logical discourse in preference of faith and feelings, the very tools used to strip the rights we hold dear. Think about that the next time you're watching someone on television, speaking how "scary" guns are and should be banned because "it feels wrong that they would have them here, there are children around!" That is what happens when feelings replace reason, and it is what happens when a group expresses bigoted ideals directed against another.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    I've run the whole gamut having been in public school (both general population and gifted programs), private Christian schools, homeschool, and I completely agree with Tawnos. The closed-minded bigotry of mainstream conservatism is (rightfully) driving away newer generations. Unfortunately because of the success of the duopolitical power structure in propagating the myth that 'voting for 3rd parties is a waste' they skip the LP and run into the waiting arms of the Dems. This last election made that abundantly clear.

    I wish the Republican Party would reform in a way that made sense. Instead of softening on the abortion issue like they have been, why not soften on the persecution of the GLBT community? Apparently letting people who love each other marry is worse than killing unborn babies.

    As it is, so long as the Republican Party has a monopoly on representing 'conservativism' the broader ideology is going to continue to lose ground. Those 20 somethings who have been paying attention have seen that Party abrogate its core values, spending recklessly, growing government, reducing the liberty of citizens--no different from the Democrats, except that Republicans also fight against the equality of gays and other such bigotry. It's lose-lose. Until conservatism jettisons the bankrupt Republican Party as it stands today, and either supports the LP or Ron Paul or similar, generation after generation is going to fall to the Dems.

    This might seem like an off-topic rant, but that's the way politics in this country work. There are no single-issue parties in the US (of consequence). When you elect somebody here you're not simply electing pro-2A or anti, you're electing a partisan who is going to push a whole spectrum of issues. Even if you elect somebody who is pro-2A, if they then vote for bills that violate the 1st and 4th Amendments, have you really helped or hindered the country as a whole? You might as well sign your own name to the unconstitutional bills being passed all the time by both sides of the aisle.

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    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    Yeah! Teaching kids only that guns are bad is like teaching abstinence-only sex ed.

    Oh, wait, most of you are probably for that.

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    Regular Member Lante's Avatar
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    Not all public schools / teachers are bad on the gun issue. Today I was helping out in my sons class and mentioned to the teacher the Kitsap County OCDO picnic yesterday. After answering her questions she said it would be a "perfect" civics lesson, just too bad she didn't have any of the pamphlets. I quickly got her enough for her class and a few extra. The class got a good education on gun rights and gun safety (I also had some Eddie Eagle info in the car...typical armed dad stuff!) Tonight the kids all took the OpenCarry.org phamplet home to study as part of their homework.... That should spur some interesting dinner conversation. BTW the school is just outside of Seattle.

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    ^ Great work, I had a 5th grade teacher who felt it was important to learn gun safety and so he he organized all the other 5th grade teachers and the entire class got educated.

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    DEROS72 wrote:
    Thats why my kids went to a private Christian school.My 16 yr old daughter lives in Ca.She is homeschooled by a Christian homeschool program.They are all doing well.2 of my daughters are now in management for big companies and able to be dicerning in who is hired .My youngest has and never will see the inside of a public school.According to my ex parents down there were even threatened with penealtys if they took their kids out of school during a so called gay studies week.I will not have my kids involved in that crap.Someone even told her that she isn't getting a well rounded education.The school system has taken everything that was once considered wrong and made it right ,a$$ backward from the way it should be.They teach revisionist history makeing out that we as Americans have done wrong.Its insane....
    I would point out that there is an inherent hypocrisy in your statements. In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson stated "All men are created equal." Why you willingly discriminate against gays and the study of their struggle for equal rights, while enjoying the privileges of your own religion confounds me. Perhaps this comes from being "through the looking glass", but my experience with private Christian education left a horrible taste in my mouth (attended CSOD (first hit on google) from 5th - 8th grade). Teaching bigotry, disgust with rational thought, exclusionary policy, et cetera is the exact same thing that is problematic in the revisionist viewing of the 2nd amendment as a collective right.

    I would also disagree that the school system has taken everything that was once considered wrong and made it right. If you mean that education leads to various forms of tolerance, I would agree, happily. Good schools and teachers (of which I had many more in public than private school) respect arguments from reason and rational discourse. Instead of saying "I believe this is the truth, and I refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary", education allows someone to say "I think this way currently, but you've put forth pretty compelling evidence that the position could be wrong. I need to revise my theory and reform my thoughts, because I've obviously not weighed all sides." Teaching people that the right to keep and bear arms does not endanger, but empowers the populus requires that second form of reason. Inherently dogmatic and bigoted teaching cannot hope to do that, as it eschews logical discourse in preference of faith and feelings, the very tools used to strip the rights we hold dear. Think about that the next time you're watching someone on television, speaking how "scary" guns are and should be banned because "it feels wrong that they would have them here, there are children around!" That is what happens when feelings replace reason, and it is what happens when a group expresses bigoted ideals directed against another.
    So he doesn't believe in what the schools are teaching, it is his right as a parent to educate his kids as he see's fit. Gay rights are not specifically taught in the constitution. Would it be wrong for someone to send their kids to a Jewish school, muslim school, what about the Amish don't they have right to educate their children the way they want.

    I personally don't believe in gay rights, minority rights, handicap rights. Its all bologne. We are all individuals and should be treated equally regardless of our sexual orientation, ethnic heritage, or the way we are born or the damage that has been done to us.

    The problem with schools is the way they demonize guns for the most part. And that they spend so much of our time on "social issues", " enviromental issues", Political correctness and not preparing them for the real world. We need to make schools get back to the basics. Leave the rest to the parents. Tolerance is taught in schools? Wow how come I have had those " we have a zero tolerance policy" talks so many times with my kids schools. Guns, self defense, speaking their minds. Our public school system is in need of drastic change. I am going to send my kids to school this month with t-shirts that say "I spend my allowance on ammo". Do you think they will be tolerant of this.


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    You make an excellent point about the hypocrisy of schools where tolerance and 'zero tolerance' are concerned.

    However your argument about how "[g]ay rights are not specifically taught in the constitution" is very weak, and the very reason it has been necessary to pass the 15th and 19th Amendments. I would like to think that we have become civilized enough that yet another amendment will not be necessary just to continue underscoring the idea of equality.

    I believe as you do that any kind of 'minority rights' (aka protected classes) are anathematic to a truly free and equal society. The whole reason that 'gay rights' has entered the language is because they are not treated equally, just as it used to be necessary to speak of 'women's rights' when theirs were unequal.

    I would never say that somebody cannot instruct their children in a given way, but that doesn't mean I or anybody else is barred from expressing distaste in that method of instruction. Freedom cuts both ways.

    The whole thing revolves around the way the subject was opened, how can we win the hearts and minds of future generations? The schools are the primary part of the problem, they're the push, but the ideas that we might want to impart to them also have to pull. This is why modern 'militias' have been unsuccessful, because of the association with bigotry. We need to fix our pull as much as the schools' push.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Lante wrote:
    Not all public schools / teachers are bad on the gun issue. Today I was helping out in my sons class and mentioned to the teacher the Kitsap County OCDO picnic yesterday. After answering her questions she said it would be a "perfect" civics lesson, just too bad she didn't have any of the pamphlets. I quickly got her enough for her class and a few extra. The class got a good education on gun rights and gun safety (I also had some Eddie Eagle info in the car...typical armed dad stuff!) Tonight the kids all took the OpenCarry.org phamplet home to study as part of their homework.... That should spur some interesting dinner conversation. BTW the school is just outside of Seattle.
    I can see at least one formal complaint against the teacher coming out of that, but its not for the teacher to decide what the parents should filter for their own kids in my opinion.

    Good on her!

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    So he doesn't believe in what the schools are teaching, it is his right as a parent to educate his kids as he see's fit. Gay rights are not specifically taught in the constitution. Would it be wrong for someone to send their kids to a Jewish school, muslim school, what about the Amish don't they have right to educate their children the way they want.

    I personally don't believe in gay rights, minority rights, handicap rights. Its all bologne. We are all individuals and should be treated equally regardless of our sexual orientation, ethnic heritage, or the way we are born or the damage that has been done to us.

    The problem with schools is the way they demonize guns for the most part. And that they spend so much of our time on "social issues", " enviromental issues", Political correctness and not preparing them for the real world. We need to make schools get back to the basics. Leave the rest to the parents. Tolerance is taught in schools? Wow how come I have had those " we have a zero tolerance policy" talks so many times with my kids schools. Guns, self defense, speaking their minds. Our public school system is in need of drastic change. I am going to send my kids to school this month with t-shirts that say "I spend my allowance on ammo". Do you think they will be tolerant of this.

    While I agree he can educate how he chooses, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of saying that he wouldn't support the teaching of civil rights for all. I'd say the same to anyone who desires to send their student to a faith-based school: so long as that faith doesn't impede critical thinking and logical discourse, I have no problem with it. Should that faith attempt to override the rights of other citizens because it teaches that they are inferior, then I have a problem.

    In your second paragraph, your first sentence and the rest are contradictory. If you believe we are "all individuals and should be treated equally regardless of our sexual orientation, ethnic heritage," etc, then you DO believe in gay rights, minority rights, handicap rights, straight rights, majority rights, et cetera. In the same way that we argue the importance of the Second Amendment, I think the Fourteenth (and Twenty First >.&gt are also important to remember, as they too define rights of We the People.

    Schools do tend to demonize guns nowadays, I'll agree. However, that tendency isn't a hard and fast rule. As others have pointed out, good teachers can challenge kids and their parents to examine their own biases to form thoughts, and are willing to incorporate better and outside material. As for "not preparing for the real world"...what world are you living in? At least in my experience, the understanding of social issues is critical in the modern workplace. In my team alone there are people from Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Canada, and the US. Parallel teams have Russians, Ukranians, Germans, British, Australians, etc. Each of those people has a different set of customs, beliefs, views on the world. Knowing that and how to be respectful of that is extremely important to be effective in the workplace, and it's awesome (for me) to hear and see so many different people with different perspectives, religions, goals, etc. In many ways, the lessons I learned about dealing with diverse social perspectives serves me greater than differential equations, linear analysis, quantum physics, or any of the other schooling I got. Doubly so for the facts and figures learned in primary and secondary school.

    However, just because I support those broad experiences I find to have a positive impact, I, too, dislike the zero intelligence policies. Your question about "I spend my allowance on ammo" is interesting, as it deals with a very recent court case (and an older one), Morse v. Frederick and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District. In both cases, the issue of free speech in school was decided (in different ways). I would guess that such a shirt would be considered to constitute a threat, if the shirt said only that. However, if it were to also include the logo and or web site for either a second amendment promoting organization, a shooting club, or similar, it would likely be protected speech.

    Perhaps you misunderstand what tolerance is, though. It's not unconditionally accepting any set of circumstances as acceptable. Instead, it's accepting points of view contrary to your own based on another's life circumstances as legitimate, even if you disagree with those views. Tolerance is a Christian who accepts that Muslim women wear a Hijab. Just because it's accepted, though, doesn't mean your women must do it, just that you recognize and respect the right of others to do differently. Tolerance is allowing a person to express their support for the individual right to keep and bear arms, even if you think only the police and military should. It is not allowing another to threaten you with those arms.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    +1 Tawnos and electric turtle.

    For what it's worth, the RKBA is growing in popularity amongst all generations. It's getting time for us to stop playing the disfavored child card. Soon it will be time to play on our being a major social force.

    The complacency engendered by taking the constitution for granted did far worse things for this country than we are seeing today. So what if teachers don't take a stance on gun rights? It's a controversial issue.

    The reality is that young people are the most likely to look at something like the Constitution with fresh eyes, and come to individual conclusions (the best kind). Sure, that means some of them will become anti-gun.

    Youth are being repelled from mainstream politics, first by the GOP's constant preference to religious zealotry over basic Rights, now by Obama's constant reliance on doublespeak and total lack of follow-through. It is not a bad thing that youth come to the RKBA out of frustration with all their rights being assaulted, rather than being supportive of it by default, having been raised that way.

    The RKBA was weakened by too many people who were raised to take it for granted. The RKBA is growing today thanks to newcomers who take nothing for granted.

    I tend to laugh at those who are so out of touch they think that the RKBA is being expanded every day because the same people are teaching it to their kids. If that were all we had to fall back on, our right would have become extinct long ago. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing to raise your children to understand the value of self-defense. Don't, however, be so arrogant as to presume this is how social memes really spread.

    People become complacent about longstanding traditions. Ironically enough, that's why the RKBA suffered such a setback during the 20th century: too many of those on our side had simply always been that way (having been raised thus), and too many on the other side were impassioned with the empowerment of a freshly discovered position. Today, the tables have turned. Anti-gun politics are old-hat, and pro-gun politics are renewed with the passion of those freshly joined in battle.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Um, guys, this is a gun-related forum. Can we please move the gay debate to some place more suitable?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't contradict myself, about gay rights etc. I was emphasizing we all have the same rights regardless of who we are. The very words "gay rights" indicate they are different than the rest of society and have unique rights that they are entitled to.Once we legislate "group rights" you make that group more of a target in the eyes of some and also elevate them above the rest of society. Cops, homosexuals, minorities shouldn't have an advantage over the rest of society because of who they are.(i.e. hate crime legislation). But like metalhead said this is a gun forum.

    With theammo shirt , I was thinking of trying to make some sort of logo to go with the shirt. Even if it is just supporting the second ammendment or target practice. I even thought about OpenCarry.org but don't want to overstep myboundaries with John and Mike's site. Anyone with any ideas. I actually agree with Tawnos somewhat on this.

    By the way I am neither Democrat or Republican but have considered the libertarian partylately, I believe that a party system has really been a major contribution to the erosion of this country. I am a very tolerant person but understand that tolerance is a two way street.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    How 'bout;
    ALL people start life with the same set of undisputed rights...how they choose to live their lives is their own choice, as long as these choices do not affect other people's lives adversely, they may continue to excersize those rights without hindrance. However, if the choices made by an individual make the rights of others be put in jeopardy, the individual will be dealt with individually....
    possibly the 28th Amdt if accepted... (in rough form, of course).
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    bugly wrote:
    How 'bout;
    ALL people start life with the same set of undisputed rights...how they choose to live their lives is their own choice, as long as these choices do not affect other people's lives adversely, they may continue to excersize those rights without hindrance. However, if the choices made by an individual make the rights of others be put in jeopardy, the individual will be dealt with individually....
    possibly the 28th Amdt if accepted... (in rough form, of course).
    Its already here Bugly, but what we have is a society that cannot agree on the key terms of that "amendment", namely "adversely", "hindrance", "jeopardy" and last but not least, "Rights".

    Its not that we are hug up on the philosophy of it all, we are just hug up on the definitions, and who gets to decide the same.

    It sure would be nice if making sense of life would be so easy as you suggest.
    But...alas...

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    Regular Member Washintonian_For_Liberty's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    If you believe we are "all individuals and should be treated equally regardless of our sexual orientation, ethnic heritage," etc, then you DO believe in gay rights, minority rights, handicap rights, straight rights, majority rights, et cetera.
    No. I do not support any of those. What is a gay right? What is a handicapped right? What are these rights you speak of???

    I believe that the only entity that is required to apply the law (Constitution) equally is the government. When you start to use the government for social change forcing people to do things they normally would not do if they had the Liberty... then you cross the line and move towards tyranny.

    We have rights... they are enumerated in the Constitution... but the more you start dividing us up into classes and separating us into special interest groups... you diminish what it means to be an American and you create this bureaucratic monstrosity that now forces us to comply with every group's complaint against us.

    Why do you have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my property? I've had this conversation before... but for anyone who loves Liberty... we will never agree to the ruse that are these special interest rights... gay rights... black rights... majority rights... handicapped rights... the ONLY right they have is that in a court, where they face off... they will be treated equal to me or you.

    I don't believe in making gay marriage legal... I believe in taking marriage out of the bailiwick of government control forever... no one should be able to tell anyone else who they can or cannot enter into a contract with... and that is what marriage is correct?

    We have this thing called the bill of rights... and in it, there is the 9th Amendment... which states;

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    We have rights as Americans... stop trying to divide us up...and pit us against each other... we do that just fine by ourselves.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    +1 bugly and Washingotn for liberty

    So any ideas about my shirts for my kids. I want to test schools tolerance of 2nd ammendment. Maybe I'll just put 2nd ammendment is an individual right .
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    "What is a gay right? What is a handicapped right? What are these rights you speak of???"

    They are not really rights, just the right to be treated the same as white, able-bodied, straight, men.
    It's a shame people need a law to make them do that.

  23. #23
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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Tawnos wrote:
    If you believe we are "all individuals and should be treated equally regardless of our sexual orientation, ethnic heritage," etc, then you DO believe in gay rights, minority rights, handicap rights, straight rights, majority rights, et cetera.
    No. I do not support any of those. What is a gay right? What is a handicapped right? What are these rights you speak of???

    I believe that the only entity that is required to apply the law (Constitution) equally is the government. When you start to use the government for social change forcing people to do things they normally would not do if they had the Liberty... then you cross the line and move towards tyranny.

    We have rights... they are enumerated in the Constitution... but the more you start dividing us up into classes and separating us into special interest groups... you diminish what it means to be an American and you create this bureaucratic monstrosity that now forces us to comply with every group's complaint against us.

    Why do you have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my property? I've had this conversation before... but for anyone who loves Liberty... we will never agree to the ruse that are these special interest rights... gay rights... black rights... majority rights... handicapped rights... the ONLY right they have is that in a court, where they face off... they will be treated equal to me or you.

    I don't believe in making gay marriage legal... I believe in taking marriage out of the bailiwick of government control forever... no one should be able to tell anyone else who they can or cannot enter into a contract with... and that is what marriage is correct?

    We have this thing called the bill of rights... and in it, there is the 9th Amendment... which states;

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    We have rights as Americans... stop trying to divide us up...and pit us against each other... we do that just fine by ourselves.
    You're making the same point I am - I'm saying it's hypocritical to deny a group because they want something you dislike while feeling offended when people try to deny you as part of a group for something they dislike. There was a reason I put "straight rights, majority rights, etc" - to point out the absurdity that any group should be denied their rights. Like it or not, we do have groups and special interests, people with different experiences, upbringings, or backgrounds. Addressing an issue as a "_____ rights" movement is simply pointing out that people in ____ are being excluded from the rights of people outside of _____. I don't think that _____ should gain special favor or treatment for such (hence why I say we're making the same point, just in a different way).

    You do throw a red herring in there, though - "Why do you have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my property?" That's a different topic I would prefer to be addressed in a different thread, as it's tangent to this.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

  24. #24
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    Great job guys you've been able to change the topic to gays and whether or not they're equal to us straights.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    ITs the ol' equalizer. Guns make us all equal. So I wonder does Grey not get bashed because he has a gun or because he is 7' tall......lol. By the way I liked Grey's interview in the weekly. It points out that no matter what our "station" in life is, the 2nd Ammendment helps us all.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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