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Thread: Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy

  1. #1
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    Sent the following to Dearborn Heights after seeing a sign at the library entrance. As with some others I "borrowed" then modified a letter that was used previously, why reinvent the wheel when you can just change the rims!!
    -------------------------------------------------

    Subject: Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy

    Dear Mayor Dan Paletko, Council Chair Kenneth R. Baron, Chair Pro-Tem Janet Badalow, Council members Elizabeth Agius, Tom Berry, Bob Brown, Marge Horvath, Margaret Van Houten

    During a recent visit to the John F. Kennedy Jr. Library I was confronted by a sign at the entrance with the Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy on it. The particular policy that caught my eye was the one stating “Carrying and displaying firearms or dangerous weapons of any kind, except by law enforcement officers”.

    Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief below), this policy is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession and transport. Furthermore, the existence of this ordinance, being in conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the people of Dearborn Heights and other citizens who may visit the Library.

    As a Dearborn Heights resident, I am requesting this policy be amended within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public of what is and is not allowed in the libraries of the City of Dearborn Heights. I look forward to your resolution and response when this policy is amended.

    Potential Ramifications. The City of Dearborn Heights itself may be open to responsibility, including financial penalties, due to false arrest/detainment of individuals lawfully carrying a firearm, or other charges. Such an arrest might be considered an unlawful seizure under Article I, Section 11 of the Constitution of the State of Michigan of 1963 and under the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Please note that Grand Haven, MI, Ottawa County, Ottawa County Sheriff's department, and several officers are currently named defendants of such a federal lawsuit (http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/view/news...=4222&zoneid=6). I don't have access to court documents, but the full complaint in this case can be read here (http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-haven-mi.html). Indeed, the arresting officer himself may become liable for infringement of a person's civil rights under 42 USC 1983 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1983.html). Given this particular consequence, the City is advised to retrain the police force and city employees on any new changes adopted to this policy.

    Thank you,

    Frank A. Ligi Jr.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3uzohtmics2b4u45avhaptfn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102


  2. #2
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    emails are great, physical letters are better...its very easy to "accidentally" delete or somehow "never receive" an email.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Good work! I hope they get back to you quickly.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Keep up the good work! Also in regards to emails ... I use read receipts so I know when they open it .. it also asks them to click a box saying they have read it... if they open it however that is enough proof that they got it as the federal govt has learned
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Keep up the good work! Also in regards to emails ... I use read receipts so I know when they open it .. it also asks them to click a box saying they have read it... if they open it however that is enough proof that they got it as the federal govt has learned
    Which email providers offer these options? How do you turn them on?

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    T Vance wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    Which email providers offer these options? How do you turn them on?
    Vance,

    It is an option that should be available from any email provider. When you open a new messege to be sent look on the toolbar for "options". If it is ther click it and then select delivery reciept and read reciept. If you don't see it on the toolbar look for options uder tools.



    Good luck

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    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    I use Microsoft Outlook and I do use the Delivery and Read options. I figure that they will need a few days to "check" with legal before I hear anything from them. Besides, I can always hand deliver the next copy.

  8. #8
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    Received a reply earlier today.

    date: Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:01 PM
    subject Re: Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy

    Reply

    It is State Law that you can not carry a fire arm in the library, church, school, exc. .

    The CCW law also states you can not carry a gun in these buildings.

    Mayor Dan Paletko

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    ISMOID wrote:
    Received a reply earlier today.

    date: Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:01 PM
    subject Re: Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy

    Reply

    It is State Law that you can not carry a fire arm in the library, church, school, exc. .

    The CCW law also states you can not carry a gun in these buildings.

    Mayor Dan Paletko
    I hope you set him right. Sounds like an idiot how hasn't taken the time to find out the law for himself. If you want I can call him and inform him of his errors. PM me his email and phone number.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    LOL...It doesn't say library on the back of MY card.

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    So ol Dan is making up laws again hmmmm
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    ISMOID wrote:
    Received a reply earlier today.

    date: Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:01 PM
    subject Re: Dearborn Heights City Libraries Patron Conduct Policy

    Reply

    It is State Law that you can not carry a fire arm in the library, church, school, exc. .

    The CCW law also states you can not carry a gun in these buildings.

    Mayor Dan Paletko
    You have got to be kidding me. What was he thinking "aww, he won't check the law, I bet he'll just believe anything I tell him. This'll make him go away!"

    I don't understand. This mayor just crashed my brain.

  13. #13
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    Just got this via email from the library director. He seems to be better informed than the mayor.
    ------------------------------------------
    Hello

    Thanks for your interest in our library system. I appreciate you reading our code of conduct and forwarding up to date information.

    Last night your challenge on our firearm policy was brought to my attention, and from what I have gathered thus far, your information is accurate.
    Libraries have in fact challenged this policy and lost, one case recently in Ferndale. CCW permits allow exceptions only in a few select buildings which
    are printed on the license itself.

    A few weeks ago, staff had gone over the code of conduct and this line caught my attention as probably being out of date, along with a couple other lines
    of clarification. We are in the process of revision of the policy.

    The intent of the rule is to prevent intimidation of patrons or staff by a person carrying a firearm. There are many people who come into a library that
    are not respectful of staff or other patrons, and yes sometimes may attempt non-overt intimidation with a holstered firearm while debating a .50 fine.
    Many children also frequent a library, and the restrictions of a CCW in regard to classrooms, day care centers and schools may imply an intent to prevent
    firearms from being present around large groups of children.

    I will be talking to the city attorney about how to reword the policy to be in compliance with State and Federal laws. I will also be researching the exact
    circumstances firearms can be brought into a library and what behavior/actions constitute ejection or police action. The policy as is also extends to other
    dangerous weapons, including knives, so we will need to consider this as well.

    Thank you very much for your feedback.

    Please feel free to contact me if you have any more questions.

    MPM

    --
    Michael Mccaffery
    Director
    Dearborn Heights City Libraries
    24590 George St.
    Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
    313-791-3800
    mmccaffery@ci.dearborn-heights.mi.us

  14. #14
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Well it looks like the Library Director is at least coming at this with an open mind and that he understands that it is legal.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    ISMOID wrote:
    Just got this via email from the library director. He seems to be better informed than the mayor.
    ------------------------------------------
    Hello

    Thanks for your interest in our library system. I appreciate you reading our code of conduct and forwarding up to date information.

    Last night your challenge on our firearm policy was brought to my attention, and from what I have gathered thus far, your information is accurate.
    Libraries have in fact challenged this policy and lost, one case recently in Ferndale. CCW permits allow exceptions only in a few select buildings which
    are printed on the license itself.

    A few weeks ago, staff had gone over the code of conduct and this line caught my attention as probably being out of date, along with a couple other lines
    of clarification. We are in the process of revision of the policy.

    The intent of the rule is to prevent intimidation of patrons or staff by a person carrying a firearm. There are many people who come into a library that
    are not respectful of staff or other patrons, and yes sometimes may attempt non-overt intimidation with a holstered firearm while debating a .50 fine.
    Many children also frequent a library, and the restrictions of a CCW in regard to classrooms, day care centers and schools may imply an intent to prevent
    firearms from being present around large groups of children.

    I will be talking to the city attorney about how to reword the policy to be in compliance with State and Federal laws. I will also be researching the exact
    circumstances firearms can be brought into a library and what behavior/actions constitute ejection or police action. The policy as is also extends to other
    dangerous weapons, including knives, so we will need to consider this as well.

    Thank you very much for your feedback.

    Please feel free to contact me if you have any more questions.

    MPM

    --
    Michael Mccaffery
    Director
    Dearborn Heights City Libraries
    24590 George St.
    Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
    313-791-3800
    mmccaffery@ci.dearborn-heights.mi.us
    Send the aboveresponse to the Mayor. Even the director has things wrong. The classroom excuse is a stretch. Besides a CPL holder could OC if that was determined to be included in the exclusion zones. They can ban all weapons but firearms.

    I don't give a crap what the intent of the rule is, if it's unlawful, it's unlawful.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  16. #16
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Send the aboveresponse to the Mayor. Even the director has things wrong. The classroom excuse is a stretch. Besides a CPL holder could OC if that was determined to be included in the exclusion zones. They can ban all weapons but firearms.

    I don't give a crap what the intent of the rule is, if it's unlawful, it's unlawful.

    At least Mr. Mccaffery has the ability to think intelligently.

    MICHAEL MCCAFFERY FOR MAYOR!
    United we STAND!

  17. #17
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    Mayor Paletko,
    I received the below response from Michael Mccaffery. I have attached some information regarding the open carrying of a firearm in the state of Michigan. Please review this information and if you have any questions or care to discuss the information provided please feel free to contact me.
    Again thank you for your time and attention in this matter,
    Frank Ligi Jr.

    <attached info.pdf file>

    <inserted email from Michael Mccaffery here>

  18. #18
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    Sounds like the library director is willing to work with you. I used to own property in Dearborn Heights, but I was never active in the political community there so I don't know any of these people, unfortunately.

    My recommendation is to seek the opinion of the City Attorney directly. If you get an invalid response (or no response at all), and if it were ME, I'd show up at a council meeting and get my answer from the council liaison to the library... he or she, should in turn, seek the advice of the City Attorney (who should be in attendance at the meeting). These meetings are usually televised and individual citizens are given time to address the council from a podium. All eyes will be on you... not just in council chambers, but viewers at home and very likely a local newspaper reporter (they usually attend these meetings to report city business in their local articles)... for this reason it's wise to conduct yourself professionally and to be concise in your statements. I wouldn't get into long dissertations about why you OC or what not... simply state what you know to be true about the law and politely ask that the city follow it.

    The DH city website doesn't appear to list the frequencies, times, or dates of their regular council sessions... but the meeting minutes (which are public record) appear to be issued every two weeks, leading me to believe they meet once every two weeks. Give them a buzz at 313-791-3400 to find out... see if you can find out who the council liaison to the library is and talk to them first though.



  19. #19
    Regular Member pmcqueen37's Avatar
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    Little off topic but recently gota park permit for Swapka Park (Dearborn Heights city park) for stepsons high school graduation, after reading this decided to read the 5 pages of rules I got, figured since I had to sign it have it signed by the parks and rec manager and they notorized it I was sure there was going to be a no guns in the park rule, but after reading over the 5 pages of rules not 1 line item rule stated anything about "no guns allowed in the city parks" to my surprise.

    back on topic I'm sure the Caroline Kennedy library would also have the same No gun signs (I needed something to put this post back on topic)
    live every day like its your last cause one day you will be right

  20. #20
    Regular Member a2fireball's Avatar
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    Ann Arbor District Library has a similar policy.



    I "borrowed" some too. I sent the following to the director of the Ann Arbor District Library:

    Dear Ms. Parker,

    While browsing the Ann Arbor District Library website, I notice the
    following in the Policies section.

    "Bans all weapons from Library premises, except for concealed weapons
    that are exempt from licensure under Michigan law or lawfully licensed
    and carried in compliance with Act 372 of 1927, as amended."

    While this policy exempts concealed weapons, it is still in conflict
    with Michigan law, as openly carrying a firearm in a holster is legal.
    A law abiding citizen who desires to carry a pistol would be
    discriminated against while wishing to use the services and facilities
    of the Ann Arbor District Library.

    Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief
    below), this policy is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession and
    transport. Furthermore, the existence of this ordinance, being in
    conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the
    people of Ann Arbor and other citizens who may visit the Library.

    The Ann Arbor District Library and its administrators could be held
    liable for civil rights violations if this policy is enforced.

    A federal civil rights lawsuit has been filed in a similar situation in
    Grand Haven, MI.
    http://www.grandhaventribune.com/paid/307858790890277.bsp

    Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety
    inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all
    places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Infringing
    on this right is a clear violation of both state and federal law.

    Libraries have challenged this and lost, one case recently in Ferndale,
    MI. There is a similar matter being examined in Dearborn Heights, MI as
    well.

    Library patrons such as myself, who openly carry a pistol, have a clear
    legal right to do so on public property.

    I fear that if I am openly carrying a pistol in accordance with state
    law in the Ann Arbor District Library, I will be harassed, detained or
    otherwise interfered with.

    As an Ann Arbor resident, I am requesting this policy be amended within
    90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance
    could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the
    public of what is and is not allowed in the libraries of the City of Ann
    Arbor. I look forward to your resolution and response when this policy
    is amended.

    I would be most grateful to hear back from you on this matter.

    Sincerely,

    Patrick J Clancy







    Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. - George Bernard Shaw

  21. #21
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Welcome a2fireball! Way to start with a bang!

    Get it?

  22. #22
    Regular Member a2fireball's Avatar
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    Thanks! I didn't know about opencarry.org or the open carry movement until recently. In fact it was last year's open carry picnic in Ann Arbor that first got my attention.


    Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. - George Bernard Shaw

  23. #23
    Regular Member a2fireball's Avatar
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    I received this reply today. I am not a lawyer, so I'm not sure if it is true that a district library is not a "local unit of government".

    Anyone? What is the best definition of a local unit of government in Michigan?




    "Dear Mr. Clancy,
    The Library received your email of June 7, 2009, and your request that the Library policy regarding weapons on library premises be amended within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Please be advised that, as a district library organized pursuant to P.A. 24 of 1989, the Ann Arbor District Library is not a "local unit of government" subject to MCL 123.1101 et seq.




    Sincerely,


    Josie Parker
    Director
    Ann Arbor District Library
    343 S. Fifth Avenue
    Ann Arbor, MI 48105 "


    a2fireball wrote:
    Ann Arbor District Library has a similar policy.



    I "borrowed" some too. I sent the following to the director of the Ann Arbor District Library:

    Dear Ms. Parker,

    While browsing the Ann Arbor District Library website, I notice the
    following in the Policies section.

    "Bans all weapons from Library premises, except for concealed weapons
    that are exempt from licensure under Michigan law or lawfully licensed
    and carried in compliance with Act 372 of 1927, as amended."

    While this policy exempts concealed weapons, it is still in conflict
    with Michigan law, as openly carrying a firearm in a holster is legal.
    A law abiding citizen who desires to carry a pistol would be
    discriminated against while wishing to use the services and facilities
    of the Ann Arbor District Library.

    Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief
    below), this policy is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession and
    transport. Furthermore, the existence of this ordinance, being in
    conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the
    people of Ann Arbor and other citizens who may visit the Library.

    The Ann Arbor District Library and its administrators could be held
    liable for civil rights violations if this policy is enforced.

    A federal civil rights lawsuit has been filed in a similar situation in
    Grand Haven, MI.
    http://www.grandhaventribune.com/paid/307858790890277.bsp

    Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety
    inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all
    places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Infringing
    on this right is a clear violation of both state and federal law.

    Libraries have challenged this and lost, one case recently in Ferndale,
    MI. There is a similar matter being examined in Dearborn Heights, MI as
    well.

    Library patrons such as myself, who openly carry a pistol, have a clear
    legal right to do so on public property.

    I fear that if I am openly carrying a pistol in accordance with state
    law in the Ann Arbor District Library, I will be harassed, detained or
    otherwise interfered with.

    As an Ann Arbor resident, I am requesting this policy be amended within
    90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance
    could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the
    public of what is and is not allowed in the libraries of the City of Ann
    Arbor. I look forward to your resolution and response when this policy
    is amended.

    I would be most grateful to hear back from you on this matter.

    Sincerely,

    Patrick J Clancy






    Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. - George Bernard Shaw

  24. #24
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Is it a public library run by the city? If so, preemption applies because it's a part of the city.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  25. #25
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I looked at the website and tried searching the internet, but I couldn't find any information on who runs the library. Anyone know how to find out?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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