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Thread: Abortion Doctor Shot Dead in Wichita, Kan.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Man, oh, man.... If I were a doctor doing late-term abortions and had been blown up and shot before....well, I'dsure be carrying a dman gun to protect myself...

    Thankfully, I guess, Roeder seems to be an unqualified gun owner/carrier. Still, guns and ideology don't mix very well. And there's probably some adverse effect on us from this Tiller murder. It's a clear cut case where a gun and a hothead equals murderous behavior.






    Abortion Doctor Shot Dead in Wichita, Kan.
    George Tiller, Who Performed Late-Term Abortions, Killed at Church; Suspect in Custody
    By LAUREN SHER
    May 31, 2009—


    Police have arrested a suspect in the killing at church ofa controversial abortion doctor, George Tiller.

    Tiller, 67, was shot and killed Sunday morning in the lobby of the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kan., where he served as an usher and his wife, Jean, sang in the choir. Tiller was handing out programs at services at the time of the shooting.

    The suspect, identified late yesterday as Scott Roeder, was picked up and arrested without incident by Johnson County Sheriff Department around 1:15 p.m., local time, law enforcement officials told ABC News. Deputies identified the light blue 1990s Ford Taurus, which witnesses saw fleeing the scene, in Gardner, Kan., roughly two-and-a-half to three hours away from where Tiller was killed.

    The suspect is expected to be charged today with one count of homicide and two counts of aggravated assault, police said.

    Tiller, who ran the Women's Health Care Services clinic, a high-profile abortion clinic in Wichita, was one of the few doctors in the country that still performed late-term abortions. Earlier this month, Tiller's clinic was vandalized, according to reports.

    Tiller has long been a target of anti-abortion activists. His clinic has often been the scene of nonviolent protests, but he was also shot outside his clinic in 1993 and his clinic was bombed in 1985.

    Wichita Police Capt. Brent Allred said police got an initial call about a shooting at the church at around 10 a.m. local time.

    "When [officers] arrived, they found a 67-year-old man had been shot by an unknown suspect or suspects," Wichita Police Duty Chief Gordon Bassham said, adding that the victim was pronounced dead at the scene shortly after emergency crews arrived.

    Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, confirmed to The Associated Press that Tiller was the victim.

    "We don't know whether one or more than one person was involved in this incident," Bassham said before the suspect was captured. "That's part of the ongoing investigation."

    Allred said the church was full as shots rang out, and witnesses quickly were rounded up for clues. Wichita Police Deputy Chief Tom Stolz said they have a handful of witnesses who were in close proximity.

    Several told reporters they were shocked when shots rang out, even more so because it happened at a church.

    "I don't believe in abortion, but I don't believe that we have the right to take anyone's life -- including Dr. Tiller," churchgoer Vivian Farha said. "It's horrible. You would think that that would be one place you can ... feel safe and be in peace with your surroundings. ... I think this why everyone is in shock."


    Abortion Clinics Offered U.S. Marshals' Protection
    An unidentified woman who answered the phone at Tiller's clinic in Kansas declined to comment or specify whether security measures had been increased in light of Tiller's killing.

    Stolz said that Wichita police would be considering whether they need to do more to protect the clinic.

    "We will look at security measures as a second facet of this investigation," Stolz said at a news conference after the suspect was arrested.

    Attorney General General Eric Holder said protection would be offered to abortion providers.

    "I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation," Holder said in a statement released late Sunday by the Justice Department. "The Department of Justice will work to bring the perpetrator of this crime to justice. As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring."

    Tiller's attorneys gave The Associated Press a statement on behalf of his wife, four children and 10 grandchildren.

    "Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients," the statement said. This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace.

    "George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality heath care despite frequent threats and violence," the statement added."



    Who Is Scott Roeder?
    Lindsey Roeder, the suspect's ex-wife, said she came home from church today to find FBI and ATF agents going through her house in Overland Park, Kan., which is about three hours outside Wichita.

    When they said they were there investigating the killing of a doctor who provided abortions, she felt instantly that her ex-husband was likely involved.

    Lindsey Roeder said it was Scott Roeder's strong anti-abortion views that led to the couple's 1996 divorce. She said her ex-husband never kept quiet about his views on abortion.

    "My family does not condone or support what Scott has done. This event is a tragic and senseless one and our thoughts and prayers are with the congregation and the doctor's family," Lindsey Roeder said.

    She said her former husband was a member of the Freemen in Missouri and has a criminal history that includes an 1996 arrest for various parole violations and having bomb making materials. She said he did do some time on charges related to those issues, but was released on a technicality.

    She said that Friday night Scott Roeder was adamant about seeing his 22-year-old son, Nick, who she claimed has tried to avoid his father and only saw him about once every six weeks growing up.

    "My son is only related to his father by blood and does not believe in any of the same views his father does," she said.

    The two did meet Friday night, though, she said, and she believes the meeting was meant as a goodbye from father to son.



    Tiller Frequent Target of Anti-Abortion Violence


    For decades, Tiller has been a target of anti-abortion violence. In 1985, his clinic was bombed, and in 1993, he was shot in both arms outside the clinic by Rachelle Shannon of Grants Pass, Ore. He testified at Shannon's trial.

    Tiller said he initially thought rubber bullets had been fired, according to ABC News Radio.

    "I looked down at the floor and there's blood all over the place and there's glass all over the place. And I figured I'd been shot," he said in 1994.

    After the 1993 shooting, Tiller immediately returned to work. The controvserial abortion doctor often wore a bullet-proof vest and drove an armored car, ABC News' Stephanie Sy reported. He was guarded by federal marshals for three years.

    "I have a right to go to work," he said in 1991. "What I'm doing is legal. What I'm doing is moral, ethical, and you won't run me out of town."

    Tiller is believed to be the first abortion doctor to be killed since Barnett Slepian was assasinated in Amherst, N.Y. in 1998.

    In March, Tiller was acquitted of 19 misdemeanor charges that he performed abortions illegally, failing to follow state law and obtain a second opinion on late-term abortions.

    Under Kansas state law, abortion is legal only when a doctor affirms that the fetus can't live independently outside of the mother's womb, also known as determining viability. If the fetus is viable, two doctors must attest that the abortion is necessary for the well-being of the mother's physical or mental health.

    A longtime acquaintance of the doctor from the Wichita Country Club who did not want to use her name told ABC News.com that the news of his death was extremely upsetting.

    "It infuriates me," she told ABCNews.com. "He was shot in church. He was persecuted by some radical thinking individuals.

    "He was well-respected in many circles in Wichita and had a presence about him," she added. "You could look at him and tell he was a man of character."

    The homicide has shaken up the upper-middle-class neighborhood of East Wichita, where violence is relatively uncommon.

    "Any community is diminished by a homicide ... and Wichita certainly no different than any other community in the country," Bassham said.

    A candlelight vigil is scheduled to take place Sunday evening in Wichita's Old Town Square to show support for Tiller's family.

    President Obama issued a statement saying he was "shocked and outraged" by the killing, and saying such actions cannot help settle the debate over abortion.

    "I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning," he said. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.

    Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, which supports abortion rights, decried the killing of Tiller as a form of terrorism.

    "If they think that by killing Dr. Tiller they are going to stop women's access to abortions, they're wrong & because there will be another doctor, and another, and another," she told ABC News Radio. "These people are organized. ...They're raising money and funding domestic terrorism."



    Anti-Abortion Rights Groups Condemn Tiller Killing
    Operation Rescue, an anti-abortion rights group that has denounced the practices of Tiller for years and staged mercy demonstrations outside the clinic in the summer of 1991, also condemned the murder.

    "We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," the organization said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ."

    However, a statement by Operation Rescue's founder, Randall Terry, sounded a more fiery note.

    "George Tiller was a mass-murderer," Terry's statement said. "We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder."

    Pat Turner, 83, a member of the Wichita chapter of the Right to Life of Kansas organization and a 30-year anti-abortion-rights activist who attended many protests outside of Tiller's clinic, told ABCNews.com that the doctor's death was far from what any organization in Wichita prayed for.

    "We abhorred all the things that he did, but we don't believe that it's in our power to take someone else's life," she said. "We have prayed and worked to change his heart and change the laws that have been made ... [but] we feel as though he should be judged in the courts. God will have his day of judgment for sure, but it's not up to us to do that."

    A statement from Tiller on the Women's Health Care Services clinic Web site offered a window into the doctor's views on abortion and women rights.

    "Women and Families are intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and ethically competent to struggle with complex health issues -- including abortion -- and come to decisions that are appropriate for themselves," Tiller wrote.

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?i...768&page=1


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    It's a clear cut case where a gun and a hothead equals murderous behavior

    Hank, sorry but that equation simply isnt right. The right equation is Murderous behavior plus gun plus hothead = shooting. The gun doesn't have anything to do with the behavior. It just made it easier for this guy to kill the doc.

    That being said, I'm not all that concerned about a murderer being murdered. Just can't get my emotion up enough to care. Although, IIRC, Gov Sibelius recently put a moratorium on using the death penalty in KS. Looks like the nutbag who did this can't get the chair right now.

    Anyone up on KS law, feel free to correct the above. Its just a recollection and I don't have time to do the research right now.

    Regards,

    Pol

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    It's a clear cut case where a gun and a hothead equals murderous behavior
    No... it's not. It's a clear case of a killer who killed someone and happened to use a gun. If he couldn't find a gun he'd probably have found another way to kill.

    I think it was a calculated act, not just somebody with a bad temper that decided to shoot someone because he lost his temper.

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    ..."The Lord works in Mysterious Ways"....

    ANY Murder is WRONG, and two wrongs do not make right.

    God will be the Final Judge of Both, one sooner, one later, but it is still His Final Judgement both will face. I would not want to be either of them facing Him and His Judgement. They have both earned whatever His Judgement shall be, but I would like to be a fly on the walls of Heaven when they arrive.....not to make light of something tragic and horrible, just my human curiousity factor......How will they be Judged?



    Nothing good will come from this event.

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    It's a clear cut case where a gun and a hothead equals murderous behavior
    No... it's not. It's a clear case of a killer who killed someone and happened to use a gun. If he couldn't find a gun he'd probably have found another way to kill.
    I don't think so. What's Roeder gonna use--a baseball bat? A knife? A big rock? Wayyyyyy less effective and success is not nearly assured.

    Nah, the best utensil to use to murder a man in the U.S.is a gun.

    I just hope he was an illegal owner of the gun. If he was legal, then it's really bad for us.



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    What else? a bomb. He had already done time for bomb-making. In this case, everyone else in the church was spared because he could access a gun.

    As far as I can see, he was a prohibited person. Felony bomb charges, according to his ex-wife. Not sure if that will actually turn out to be true, though.

    Regards,

    Pol

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    The tragedy of two extremist .

    Underlying catalyst : 9th month late term elective abortion

    __________________________________________________ _______



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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Pol Mordreth wrote:
    What else? a bomb. He had already done time for bomb-making. In this case, everyone else in the church was spared because he could access a gun.

    As far as I can see, he was a prohibited person. Felony bomb charges, according to his ex-wife. Not sure if that will actually turn out to be true, though.


    Bombs are a LOT harder to deploy than a gun. I mean, it's not even close.

    No, the right tool to murder a guy like Tiller is a good ole fashioned handgun.

    That's the problem. And the perception of the regulators/antis/LE.

    I really feel p*ssed that we have to be judged in part by actions from hotheads like Roeder.

    Too bad somebody didn't justsnatch Roeder's gun from him.



    P.S. Thanks a bunch for the graphic, RaZor. It'll likely get this thread locked.


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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Sigh......noooo....HankT isn't a troll at all.......

    Let's not turn this into an abortion debate.....it's a discussion about a murder where the BG happened to use a gun.

    As it was said, the guy was a prohibited person and had a gun ANYWAYS. All those gun control laws sure are doing a good job, aren't they? The guy at the abortion clinic should have been armed to defend himself.....but then again, the type of people working at such places precludes any self defense in most cases.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Sigh......noooo....HankT isn't a troll at all.......

    Let's not turn this into an abortion debate.....it's a discussion about a murder where the BG happened to use a gun.

    As it was said, the guy was a prohibited person and had a gun ANYWAYS. All those gun control laws sure are doing a good job, aren't they? The guy at the abortion clinic should have been armed to defend himself.....but then again, the type of people working at such places precludes any self defense in most cases.
    Surgical scissors used at the base of the skull will keep others in the room unharmed . The $ 5000.oo fee [ cash ] changes the elective to medically needed medical procedure .

    The surgical scissors , gun , or bombare not the issues of this tragedy .



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    Anti-abortion people are complete and utter nutcases like PETA(rds).

    Abortion is a right, which I support, whether people like it or not. Roe vs Wade will not have any other outcome, and if they want to push it then I'm sure the justices will allow abortion all the way through the third trimester to piss them all off. Many states ban abortion of the third trimester unless medically necessary. Leaving the woman to travel outside the state to another or out of the country, which some do.

    I only wish the doctor was carrying a gun, I'd rather see "anti-abortionist killed in plot to kill a medical doctor."
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    We as RKBA supporters are aware of the designs being made to destroy the Second Amendment .

    Our votes must grow in numbers for us to be politically sound .

    The ancients had a couple good saying :

    The enemy of my enemy is a friend .

    &

    It is good to strike the serpent's head with another's hand .

    Our enemy supports gun control and partial birth abortion thru the improved AWB and Freedom of Choice Act .

    I support the RKBA and in the case of rape , incest , and health of the mother an abortion . Michelle Obama's 9th month late term partial birth elective abortion thru Obama's promised " Freedom of Choice Act " is my line in the sand .

    Read the first paragraph from Michelle .......





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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    razor,

    even though I believe most human life tends to be at greater value of a non-human animal, I can't agree with people wanting to control the life of a female as to whether she is allowed to stop providing for a life-form. Yet another attempt to place/keep a woman below a man.

    If you want to get technical, even if abortion was completely banned, people would return to the very dangerous method of the wire hanger.

    Until the morons stop regulating sex ed which are currently regulating the teaching of other forms of birth control in PUBLIC schools, I'll always support abortion. Currently schools are strictly regulated from teaching kids on sex education. Not even 3rd parties which come in to schools can inform kids about methods other than condoms. Why? religious nutters wanting to suppress knowledge out of feat it may promote "promiscuous behavior" in people. This comes from information obtained from family planning clinics who are the ones to visit the schools.

    I can tell you so many females do not know of the morning after pill, birth control shot, the female condom, or even know of tubal ligation.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    HankT wrote:
    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    It's a clear cut case where a gun and a hothead equals murderous behavior
    No... it's not. It's a clear case of a killer who killed someone and happened to use a gun. If he couldn't find a gun he'd probably have found another way to kill.
    I don't think so. What's Roeder gonna use--a baseball bat?* A knife? A big rock? Wayyyyyy less effective and success is not nearly assured.

    Nah, the best utensil to use to murder a man in the U.S.*is a gun.

    I just hope he was an illegal owner of the gun. If he was legal, then it's really bad for us.

    *
    Plenty of people in the United States have been killed with baseball bats, knives, rocks, screwdrivers, icepicks and other pointy objects, automobiles, poison, bare fists, tire irons and other blunt weapons, explosives, bows/crossbows, and more.

    A firearm may be effective, but there are plenty of ways to kill a man. Do you really think that this guy would have decided not to kill this guy if he magically couldn't use a firearm to do so?

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    Tribute to Dr. George Tiller (The Baby Killer)

    Warning: This montage contains graphic images of actual abortions.

    Track: "Angel of Death"-Slayer.
    The song is about Dr. Josef Mengele, the Auschwitz doctor who did heinous medical experiments with Jewish child inmates. The song could have very well been written about Dr. Tiller.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9da_1243875490



    Lyrics of selected audio clip:

    Pumped with fluid, inside your brain
    Pressure in your skull begins pushing through your eyes
    Burning flesh, drips away
    Test of heat burns your skin, your mind starts to boil
    Frigid cold, cracks your limbs
    How long can you last
    In this frozen water burial?
    Sewn together, joining heads
    Just a matter of time
    til you rip yourselves apart
    Millions laid out in their
    Crowded tombs
    Sickening ways to achieve
    The holocaust
    Seas of blood, bury life
    Smell your death as it burns
    Deep inside of you
    Abacinate, eyes that bleed
    Praying for the end of
    Your wide awake nightmare
    Wings of pain, reach out for you
    His face of death staring down,
    Your blood running cold
    Injecting cells, dying eyes
    Feeding on the screams of
    The mutants hes creating
    Pathetic harmless victims
    Left to die
    Rancid angel of death
    Flying free









  16. #16
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    A firearm may be effective, but there are plenty of ways to kill a man.

    "May" be effective? Gee, you don't want to concede anything!





    Felid`Maximus wrote:

    Plenty of people in the United States have been killed with baseball bats, knives, rocks, screwdrivers, icepicks and other pointy objects, automobiles, poison, bare fists, tire irons and other blunt weapons, explosives, bows/crossbows, and more.


    C'mon. Around 10,000 people get shot to death every year. How many get killed with rocks?

    2?

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    I am going to get it for my reply, but maybe, just maybe the doctor got his reward from the one above, for killing those little babies.

    LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION!!!!

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    HankT wrote:
    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    A firearm may be effective, but there are plenty of ways to kill a man.

    "May" be effective? Gee, you don't want to concede anything!





    Felid`Maximus wrote:

    Plenty of people in the United States have been killed with baseball bats, knives, rocks, screwdrivers, icepicks and other pointy objects, automobiles, poison, bare fists, tire irons and other blunt weapons, explosives, bows/crossbows, and more.


    C'mon. Around 10,000 people get shot to death every year. How many get killed with rocks?

    2?
    I think your a little low in your rock estimate. Hardened floors are traditionally made from finely crushed particles from.....rocks. Slips, trips and falls have been an extremely high cause of death in the world. Doesn't matter if it's in the workplace, home space, or great outdoors. Rocks KILL.....more than 2 a year. So there you have it, hehe.

  19. #19
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    sureshot wrote:
    I am going to get it for my reply, but maybe, just maybe the doctor got his reward from the one above, for killing those little babies.
    What would you have said if Tiller had been armed with a gun and managed to shoot and kill Roeder?

    Wouldn't we all be cheering that a LAC defended himself with deadly force against a murderous attack? We would be cheering, woudn't we.... :P

    Tiller had been known to wear a ballistic vest in the past. So, he was well aware that he might have the opportunity to defend himself.

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:

    Plenty of people in the United States have been killed with baseball bats, knives, rocks, screwdrivers, icepicks and other pointy objects, automobiles, poison, bare fists, tire irons and other blunt weapons, explosives, bows/crossbows, and more.

    A firearm may be effective, but there are plenty of ways to kill a man. Do you really think that this guy would have decided not to kill this guy if he magically couldn't use a firearm to do so?

    Lieutenant Columbo episodes were very creative with the different objects used to kill . Wasn't there a toilet tank lid used in one of the programs ?

    It is the late term partial birth elective abortion at the time of birth that is at the top of the topic in the MSM . Obama's promise to pass his " Freedom of Choice Act " that makes this medical procedure legal and not a toilet tank lid or any object used as a weapon is the politically correct focus of discussion . what happens to the parts ?










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    Liam Neeson's wife was killed by a fall on, of all things, snow.........maybe we should outlaw snow............and skiing, snow boarding, sledding and all other related activites dealing with snow...........it is for the Safety of thechildren after all...........

  22. #22
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    curtm1911 wrote:
    Liam Neeson's wife was killed by a fall on, of all things, snow.........maybe we should outlaw snow............and skiing, snow boarding, sledding and all other related activites dealing with snow...........it is for the Safety of thechildren after all...........
    How did we get from deaths caused by murderous intent to accidental falls which cause death on snow?

    Oh, yeah, it's the ole strawman argument gambit.

    Never mind.

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    Two words, you can look up their meanings yourself; IE: Research........

    Sarcasm

    Satire

    I was just pointing out that damn near anything can kill you nowadays with a bit of tongue in cheek ofone or both of the two words above.



    In a way, I agree with sureshot, and refer to my earlier post, "The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways". Chew on that one awhile..........

  24. #24
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    curtm1911 wrote:
    Two words, you can look up their meanings yourself; IE: Research........

    Sarcasm

    Satire

    I was just pointing out that damn near anything can kill you nowadays with a bit of tongue in cheek ofone or both of the two words above.

    Oh, please.





    See, also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man



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    HankT wrote:
    C'mon. Around 10,000 people get shot to death every year. How many get killed with rocks?

    2?
    Over 40,000 people get killed by automobiles per year... what's your point? The more something kills, the more dangerous it is?
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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