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Thread: 1st Encounter with LEO

  1. #1
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    I've been OC for about a month now and have been waiting for this day for awhile. I was out walking my dog out along Warren rd. Walked him for about an hr and as i was makeing my way home I heard the siren and though here it comes. Initially they blew right past me and then made the quick turn around. By the time this happened. I was about to cross a side street so I just decided to wait for 'em. It was a 2 man car and both got out. The driver took his time comeing around the car and took a little bit to say anything. I don't remember exactly what he but it was something to the effect of we got a MWAG call. To wich I replied So, Its Legal. Noone said it wasn't legal it just isn't very common you understand. By this time he was approching me and asked do you have any ID on me I said it was in my pocket and pointed to it. Some were in here I asked for his name I just don't remember when exactly. He asked me to get it out I said something to the effect of I don't have to but did anyway. As I was he said I just want to see who I'm talking too. You seem awfully defensive. "Yea, I'm a little defensive I'm walking my dog doing nothing wrong." Yea, but its not normal to see someone walking around with a gun. This exchange went on a couple of times through out the encounter. The second LEO ran my ID said something to the 1st officer and handed it back to him and He handed back to me. I told him that I walk my dog alot like this expect more calls. We departed with a hand shake and have a good day.

    I retained my weapon the entire time and was never asked to hand it over. The whole encounter lasted no longer than 5 min and even that is a long estimit. All in all I didn't think it went too bad. You can read stuff and plan stuff in your head all you want but I find that once you actually meet LEO things usually go a little differently. I beleive that Westland has been sent MOC info any thoughts on what I should do, if anything.

    My puppy did great he just sat there the entire time. (had to give him his due)

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    the500kid wrote:
    You can read stuff and plan stuff in your head all you want but I find that once you actually meet LEO things usually go a little differently.
    They sure do...but it sounds like you handled yourself well, and had a decent experience overall.

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    Not bad for a first run in.

    2 things I gotta point out. First, you shouldn't have been carrying an ID. I never do for local neighborhood walks or jogs, only when I'm somewhere I drove to, because I don't want to leave it in my car.

    Second, I'm guessing you didn't record it. I cannot stress enough how critical it is to carry at LEAST one recorder, but preferably 2 or 3 with at least one hidden. Luckily these cops weren't too bad, but with really terrible cops, having a recorder can make an immense difference both on the scene and later in court.
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    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.

    That said, you did well for your first experience. It didn't go much differently than my own. I just get stick of their "stop and identify" mentality. I don't have to stop, so I wont.

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    did you get a badge number/report number? if so, and there is a police report i would FoIA and get a copy.

    you did well though, i give you props.



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    I did not record it. I really need to get a recording device. I've been reading the necessity of them and know that most encounters don't go as well. The primary reason for carrying the ID was I didn't have a recording device.

    As for the stopping part I've really kind of been looking forward to getting stopped. Just really wanted to get my first one out of the way and in my area when I'm not doing anything really important. I do like the sorry i'm busy line.

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    I did not get the badge number I did get the officers name/no report number either. Do you still think I should FoIA and try and get a report?




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    the500kid wrote:
    I did not get the badge number I did get the officers name/no report number either. Do you still think I should FoIA and try and get a report?
    Absolutely yes, FOIA the info.

    You don't need the badge number, or even the officers names. If you include your name, and the time of the incident, that's all they need. They will have a report with your name on it, and they can look it up easily.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Sounds like you had a good encounter, I'm wondering when mine is going to happen since I live in Downtown Detroit.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    the500kid wrote:
    I've been OC for about a month now and have been waiting for this day for awhile. I was out walking my dog out along Warren rd. Walked him for about an hr and as i was makeing my way home I heard the siren and though here it comes. Initially they blew right past me and then made the quick turn around. By the time this happened. I was about to cross a side street so I just decided to wait for 'em. It was a 2 man car and both got out. The driver took his time comeing around the car and took a little bit to say anything. I don't remember exactly what he but it was something to the effect of we got a MWAG call. To wich I replied So, Its Legal. Noone said it wasn't legal it just isn't very common you understand. By this time he was approching me and asked do you have any ID on me I said it was in my pocket and pointed to it. Some were in here I asked for his name I just don't remember when exactly. He asked me to get it out I said something to the effect of I don't have to but did anyway. As I was he said I just want to see who I'm talking too. You seem awfully defensive. "Yea, I'm a little defensive I'm walking my dog doing nothing wrong." Yea, but its not normal to see someone walking around with a gun. This exchange went on a couple of times through out the encounter. The second LEO ran my ID said something to the 1st officer and handed it back to him and He handed back to me. I told him that I walk my dog alot like this expect more calls. We departed with a hand shake and have a good day.

    I retained my weapon the entire time and was never asked to hand it over. The whole encounter lasted no longer than 5 min and even that is a long estimit. All in all I didn't think it went too bad. You can read stuff and plan stuff in your head all you want but I find that once you actually meet LEO things usually go a little differently. I beleive that Westland has been sent MOC info any thoughts on what I should do, if anything.

    My puppy did great he just sat there the entire time. (had to give him his due)

    Please don't volunteer ID. Then the LEO's will expect it all the time and you don't have to show it. When you give it to them they win and will continue to harass OCers.

    Stand your ground. Would you give your ID to a stranger that asked for it? No? Well you just did. Please, the law and your rights are on your side with this.

    Don't offer or give ID, unless you are driving or in an area where firearms are prohibited and you are carrying under authority of your CPL.


    If they take it then you have a complaint. If you give it, no complaint. Do not consent to any search or seizures, don't resist but do verbally say "I don't consent to any searches".
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    The only advise I can give is keep going over Wash rinse repeat. and New to open carry start here so you can work on responses and not giveing ID like Venator is beating me up for. To be honest I never planed on not showing ID if they asked for it right or wrong thats just the way my mindset was.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy" ?

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    the500kid wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy"* ?
    I'll tell you when it happens.

    I expect that the very next thing that'll happen is that they'll compel me to stop. At which point, they MUST have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to have stopped me.

    The first thing out of my mouth will be notifying them that I'm carrying concealed (if I am), then I'll say "Since you compelled me to stop, you must have had reasonable articulable suspicion to have done so. What's your RAS for stopping me, officer?"

    If he has none, then I'll respond "Then I'm sure you wont mind if I go about my business."

    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.
    Which again hammers home the importance of recording devices.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    the500kid wrote:
    The only advise I can give is keep going over Wash rinse repeat.* and New to open carry start here so you can work on responses and not giveing ID like Venator is beating me up for.* To be honest I never planed on not showing ID if they asked for it right or wrong thats just the way my mindset was.*
    Well, here's the deal. You have the right to give ID to anybody you want, and if you feel that's best for you, then go for it. What Venator says is true, though. If we give ID when we don't need to, "they" will expect it. I don't give ID unless I'm CCing, and this isn't just a theory for me. I have refused to give ID. No, the officer wasn't very happy, but that's not my problem.

    A good question to ask is if you were walking down the sidewalk, walking your dog and carrying a box of instant potatoes instead of a firearm, would you be as willing to give ID if you were stopped in the same manner? There is no difference.

    Overall a good interaction though. Everybody went home safe and the dog behaved.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    the500kid wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy" ?
    I'll tell you when it happens.

    I expect that the very next thing that'll happen is that they'll compel me to stop. At which point, they MUST have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to have stopped me.

    The first thing out of my mouth will be notifying them that I'm carrying concealed (if I am), then I'll say "Since you compelled me to stop, you must have had reasonable articulable suspicion to have done so. What's your RAS for stopping me, officer?"

    If he has none, then I'll respond "Then I'm sure you wont mind if I go about my business."

    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.
    Be careful with this. I don't think they have to tell you anything, let alone what their RS/PC is. However, if they tell you they are not detaining you... then they are not detaining you. That doesn't mean that they will just let you walk away. Remember, some of these officers are going to go to criminal lengths to infringe your rights. The officer in Ohio told the OC'er that he wasn't being detained, and also that he wasn't free to go. How we handle each encounter is up to each individual to decide. Ultimately, you are the one who is going to deal with the potential repercussions.

  17. #17
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    ghostrider wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    the500kid wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy" ?
    I'll tell you when it happens.

    I expect that the very next thing that'll happen is that they'll compel me to stop. At which point, they MUST have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to have stopped me.

    The first thing out of my mouth will be notifying them that I'm carrying concealed (if I am), then I'll say "Since you compelled me to stop, you must have had reasonable articulable suspicion to have done so. What's your RAS for stopping me, officer?"

    If he has none, then I'll respond "Then I'm sure you wont mind if I go about my business."

    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.
    Be careful with this. I don't think they have to tell you anything, let alone what their RS/PC is. However, if they tell you they are not detaining you... then they are not detaining you. That doesn't mean that they will just let you walk away. Remember, some of these officers are going to go to criminal lengths to infringe your rights. The officer in Ohio told the OC'er that he wasn't being detained, and also that he wasn't free to go. How we handle each encounter is up to each individual to decide. Ultimately, you are the one who is going to deal with the potential repercussions.
    Again that is why we need to record these interactions. He said, she said, doesn't cut it.

    When a Chief can hear his officer breaking the law and acting unprofessional well, that's just amuch better educational tool.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    the500kid wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy" ?
    I'll tell you when it happens.

    I expect that the very next thing that'll happen is that they'll compel me to stop. At which point, they MUST have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to have stopped me.

    The first thing out of my mouth will be notifying them that I'm carrying concealed (if I am), then I'll say "Since you compelled me to stop, you must have had reasonable articulable suspicion to have done so. What's your RAS for stopping me, officer?"

    If he has none, then I'll respond "Then I'm sure you wont mind if I go about my business."

    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.
    Be careful with this. I don't think they have to tell you anything, let alone what their RS/PC is. However, if they tell you they are not detaining you... then they are not detaining you. That doesn't mean that they will just let you walk away. Remember, some of these officers are going to go to criminal lengths to infringe your rights. The officer in Ohio told the OC'er that he wasn't being detained, and also that he wasn't free to go. How we handle each encounter is up to each individual to decide. Ultimately, you are the one who is going to deal with the potential repercussions.
    First....to correct the red text, it's Title 18, Sec 242 USC "Deprivation of rights under color of law" and according to the punishment schedule, it only a misdemeanor unless or until actual 'bodily injury' occurs.



    Second... Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained? Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be genereal consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to ME it in the instant matter in order for me to know that they are not playing on (my) ignorance and trying to trick (me) into voluntarily surrendering my rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASK if you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasise that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speach patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.

    (caveat: do the research to determine if your state has a clearly defined 'stop and identify' statute. )

  19. #19
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    Phssthpok wrote:
    ...
    Second... Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained? Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be genereal consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to ME it in the instant matter in order for me to know that they are not playing on (my) ignorance and trying to trick (me) into voluntarily surrendering my rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASK if you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasise that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speach patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.

    (caveat: do the research to determine if your state has a clearly defined 'stop and identify' statute. )
    I like this reasoning. Perhaps W.R.R. could use an update?
    United we STAND!

  20. #20
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    Bump cuz it was helpful.
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    Phssthpok wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    the500kid wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    I'm at the point now where I won't even stop until an officer TELLS me (not asks) to stop. A simple "No thanks, I'm busy." should suffice.
    What the usual reaction you get when you tell the LEO "No thanks, I'm busy" ?
    I'll tell you when it happens.

    I expect that the very next thing that'll happen is that they'll compel me to stop. At which point, they MUST have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to have stopped me.

    The first thing out of my mouth will be notifying them that I'm carrying concealed (if I am), then I'll say "Since you compelled me to stop, you must have had reasonable articulable suspicion to have done so. What's your RAS for stopping me, officer?"

    If he has none, then I'll respond "Then I'm sure you wont mind if I go about my business."

    If he won't let you go at that point, then he's committing a federal felony (abuse of power under color of law), and violating your 4th amendment rights, which gives you the power to sue for damages.
    Be careful with this. I don't think they have to tell you anything, let alone what their RS/PC is. However, if they tell you they are not detaining you... then they are not detaining you. That doesn't mean that they will just let you walk away. Remember, some of these officers are going to go to criminal lengths to infringe your rights. The officer in Ohio told the OC'er that he wasn't being detained, and also that he wasn't free to go. How we handle each encounter is up to each individual to decide. Ultimately, you are the one who is going to deal with the potential repercussions.
    First....to correct the red text, it's Title 18, Sec 242 USC "Deprivation of rights under color of law" and according to the punishment schedule, it only a misdemeanor unless or until actual 'bodily injury' occurs.



    Second... Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained? Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be genereal consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to ME it in the instant matter in order for me to know that they are not playing on (my) ignorance and trying to trick (me) into voluntarily surrendering my rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASK if you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasise that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speach patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.

    (caveat: do the research to determine if your state has a clearly defined 'stop and identify' statute. )
    But here’s the problem with that scenario of the 7 times I’ve been stopped last month most of them began with the LEO’s ordering me get my hands up and disarming me first. In the first few seconds of the stop they are in no mood to stand there and debate with you whether they have RAS/PC. They know that once they gain possession of your gun you aren’t going anywhere until you get it back. So yeah the LEO’s will say "Yeah sure, youre free to go, now." Meanwhile your gun is sitting on their dashboard of the squad car.

    And if you try to jerk away from them while your hands are up to prevent them from disarming you, the citizen runs the risk of being shot or getting roughed up. It isn’t until they gain possession of your gun do they begin to become talkative.

    When you ask "Am I being detained?" they usually wont give you a straight answer yes or no, they’ll give you some long winded answer to stall for time while their partner is disarming you.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    for the sake of argument, what do you suppose would happen if you told them at that point that you wouldnt answer any more questions until your firearm was returned? And then stuck by it.


    They do not have RAS or PC at this point.


    edited for punctuation

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  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    cmdr_iceman71 wrote:
    But here’s the problem with that scenario of the 7 times I’ve been stopped last month most of them began with the LEO’s ordering me get my hands up and disarming me first. In the first few seconds of the stop they are in no mood to stand there and debate with you whether they have RAS/PC. They know that once they gain possession of your gun you aren’t going anywhere until you get it back. So yeah the LEO’s will say "Yeah sure, youre free to go, now." Meanwhile your gun is sitting on their dashboard of the squad car.

    And if you try to jerk away from them while your hands are up to prevent them from disarming you, the citizen runs the risk of being shot or getting roughed up. It isn’t until they gain possession of your gun do they begin to become talkative.

    When you ask "Am I being detained?" they usually wont give you a straight answer yes or no, they’ll give you some long winded answer to stall for time while their partner is disarming you
    The purpose of asking questions like "am I free to go?, why are you detaining me?, is it because of the lawful possession of a firearm?", is not to convince them you are right, it's to have on record your statements and their answer to these very important questions.

    The LEO is going to do whatever he wants. You just want to have on record that you were doing nothing wrong and have them admit that you were doing nothing wrong and the only reason they detained you was for the lawful OC of a firearm.

    That is why you ask these questions.....they are for the record.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  25. #25
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    cmdr_iceman71 wrote:
    But here’s the problem with that scenario of the 7 times I’ve been stopped last month most of them began with the LEO’s ordering me get my hands up and disarming me first. In the first few seconds of the stop they are in no mood to stand there and debate with you whether they have RAS/PC. They know that once they gain possession of your gun you aren’t going anywhere until you get it back. So yeah the LEO’s will say "Yeah sure, youre free to go, now." Meanwhile your gun is sitting on their dashboard of the squad car.

    And if you try to jerk away from them while your hands are up to prevent them from disarming you, the citizen runs the risk of being shot or getting roughed up. It isn’t until they gain possession of your gun do they begin to become talkative.

    When you ask "Am I being detained?" they usually wont give you a straight answer yes or no, they’ll give you some long winded answer to stall for time while their partner is disarming you.
    They got your gun, so frickin what.

    LEAVE!

    Call local PD and report it stolen, also a call to the FBI couldn't hurt either.

    "jerk away" NEVER NEVER NEVER resist physically!

    Again, don't ask to leave, TELL THEM YOU ARE LEAVING in like 30 seconds if they don't tell you that you are "detained" AND what the RAS is.

    Count to 30 then WALK (or ride in your case )

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