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Thread: Required to conceal if you have a CPL?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Tao's Avatar
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    Ok, my buddy is a good guy, means well, and if he takes the intellectual high road, I think he'll make a great cop.

    He just graduated from Detroit PD's academy, so I thought I would get his reaction to the recent DPD cluster, and sent him the link: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453.html

    I'm kind of at a loss how to respond, because I want to use some pejorative words, but he is a good friend after all.

    Help me out here. What's factually wrong, and how can I firmly correct him on it?

    Give him a break on grammar and format, it was an informal facebook message.

    the open carry thing... he is actually in violation of state statues. Once you have a "ccw" cpl you are obligated to comply with the laws in relation to a cpl.. you are now governed by those laws. once you have a cpl you no longer have the option of open carry. you MUST conceal your pistol at all times. He could lose his cpl.

    as far as the officers behavior i dont agree with it but i dont like someone being a smart ass to me and being i know the laws regarding "ccw" i might have his @#$% revoked. his rights were violated in respect that they tried to charge him with something he wasnt doing however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl... its a concealed pistols license... conceal your pistol.

    here is the catch to open carry. you can openly carry a firearm in a holster in MI. once you get into a car you are in violation of ccw which is a felony. in order to transport a firearm legally gun and ammo separated and firearm out of reach. but for legal purposes so to and from a gun range or gun shop.

    open carry is still legal but in order to do so its very difficult. one of those laws that needs to be changed but hasnt been like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:

    it is what we learned in the law portion of academy... if you are interested i will try to look for the statues in my pen code book monday.

    if this applies to you... STOP OPEN CARRY

    also what was explained when I received my license

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    Make him cite to statute. There's no law requiring concealment. You just gain an option.

    I can't give you anything to prove this, because there's literally nothing in Michigan Compiled Law that states one way or the other.

    As they say, if it's not illegal, then it must be legal.

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    show him the AG opinion and the notes from the State Police:
    Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute. “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441
    If it was as he says illegal to OC when you have a CPL then why would the state police state a CPL holder can openly carry?

    As for this part:
    here is the catch to open carry. you can openly carry a firearm in a holster in MI. once you get into a car you are in violation of ccw which is a felony. in order to transport a firearm legally gun and ammo separated and firearm out of reach. but for legal purposes so to and from a gun range or gun shop.
    He is forgetting that open cary is a legal purpose, thus transporting a pistol lawfully from one place to another with the intent to open carry falls under the law.

    But like ziggity said have him show you the law that states what he claims. and state law mind you as any local law is preempted.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Well, then obviously once you get your driver's License, you are obligated to drive everywhere and can no longer opt to walk. After all it is a DRIVER's license.

    A license ALLOWS you to carry concealed, it does not MANDATE concealment.

    Unless he can provide a clear citation to an actual LAW, then he is completely wrong.

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    STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
    CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963

    § 6 Bearing of arms.


    Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.


    Article I section 6 of the Michigan constitution says that self defense is a legal purpose.

    Bronson
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    Tao wrote:
    like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:
    WHAT??? :what::what::what::what::what:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascivious

    Wow...

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Tao wrote:
    Ok, my buddy is a good guy, means well, and if he takes the intellectual high road, I think he'll make a great cop.

    He just graduated from Detroit PD's academy, so I thought I would get his reaction to the recent DPD cluster, and sent him the link: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453.html

    I'm kind of at a loss how to respond, because I want to use some pejorative words, but he is a good friend after all.

    Help me out here. What's factually wrong, and how can I firmly correct him on it?

    Give him a break on grammar and format, it was an informal facebook message.

    the open carry thing... he is actually in violation of state statues. Once you have a "ccw" cpl you are obligated to comply with the laws in relation to a cpl.. you are now governed by those laws. once you have a cpl you no longer have the option of open carry. you MUST conceal your pistol at all times. He could lose his cpl.

    as far as the officers behavior i dont agree with it but i dont like someone being a smart ass to me and being i know the laws regarding "ccw" i might have his @#$% revoked. his rights were violated in respect that they tried to charge him with something he wasnt doing however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl... its a concealed pistols license... conceal your pistol.

    here is the catch to open carry. you can openly carry a firearm in a holster in MI. once you get into a car you are in violation of ccw which is a felony. in order to transport a firearm legally gun and ammo separated and firearm out of reach. but for legal purposes so to and from a gun range or gun shop.

    open carry is still legal but in order to do so its very difficult. one of those laws that needs to be changed but hasnt been like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:

    it is what we learned in the law portion of academy... if you are interested i will try to look for the statues in my pen code book monday.

    if this applies to you... STOP OPEN CARRY

    also what was explained when I received my license
    I think this is a first, he is wrong on every single point. Even a blind pig finds an acornnowand then. This goes a long way in explaining some of the problems with the Detroit Police, if they are training their officer this well.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    Tao wrote:
    Ok, my buddy is a good guy, means well, and if he takes the intellectual high road, I think he'll make a great cop.

    He just graduated from Detroit PD's academy, so I thought I would get his reaction to the recent DPD cluster, and sent him the link: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453.html

    I'm kind of at a loss how to respond, because I want to use some pejorative words, but he is a good friend after all.

    Help me out here. What's factually wrong, and how can I firmly correct him on it?

    Give him a break on grammar and format, it was an informal facebook message.

    the open carry thing... he is actually in violation of state statues. Once you have a "ccw" cpl you are obligated to comply with the laws in relation to a cpl.. you are now governed by those laws. once you have a cpl you no longer have the option of open carry. you MUST conceal your pistol at all times. He could lose his cpl.

    as far as the officers behavior i dont agree with it but i dont like someone being a smart ass to me and being i know the laws regarding "ccw" i might have his @#$% revoked. his rights were violated in respect that they tried to charge him with something he wasnt doing however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl... its a concealed pistols license... conceal your pistol.

    here is the catch to open carry. you can openly carry a firearm in a holster in MI. once you get into a car you are in violation of ccw which is a felony. in order to transport a firearm legally gun and ammo separated and firearm out of reach. but for legal purposes so to and from a gun range or gun shop.

    open carry is still legal but in order to do so its very difficult. one of those laws that needs to be changed but hasnt been like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:

    it is what we learned in the law portion of academy... if you are interested i will try to look for the statues in my pen code book monday.

    if this applies to you... STOP OPEN CARRY

    also what was explained when I received my license
    I think this is a first, he is wrong on every single point. Even a blind pig finds an acornnowand then. This goes a long way in explaining some of the problems with the Detroit Police, if they are training their officer this well.
    +1

    He has no clue what he is talking about, and his attitude is beyond contempt. He also comes across as very arrogant for someone who claims to know CCW law when he only makes himself look inept.

    Tell him cite every law supporting what he said. He won't because he can't.

    His statements about not liking someone being a smartass when he knows the ccw laws makes him sound extremely arrogant (besides the fact that there is court ruling about "contempt of cop"). Based on that, I'm guessing that he won't admit to being wrong. Chances are that if you persist in an effort to get his opinion changed (or just get him to prove what he says), that you'll probably loose a friend.


    Here's another one:

    ...however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl....
    He's totally wrong about this also, and it's consequences are chilling. He admits to a violation of rights, but then says that he can be detained after that. Without RS of criminal activity, he cannot be lawfully detained. Period.

    That he is being taught this mentality (much less this misinformation) from the academy indicates why there is a culture of violating people's rights among the LEO community.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Make him cite to statute. There's no law requiring concealment. You just gain an option.

    I can't give you anything to prove this, because there's literally nothing in Michigan Compiled Law that states one way or the other.

    As they say, if it's not illegal, then it must be legal.
    There is a law stating that you can open carry, it is called the State constitution, All residents have the right to keep & bear (to show) for self defense & the security of a free state.There is a law saying you can't hide unless you have a CPL. It's obvious.

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    Tao wrote:
    How I would respond... feel free to send this to him too if you wish; since I'm the guy he's talking about:

    the open carry thing... he is actually in violation of state statues. False. This is why I was released without ANY charges.

    Once you have a "ccw" cpl you are obligated to comply with the laws in relation to a cpl.. you are now governed by those laws. Yes, you are compelled to comply with CPL laws when you are carrying concealed. But you are not obligated to ONLY carry concealed... there is simply no law that says this. If there were such a law, it would be unConstitutional.

    once you have a cpl you no longer have the option of open carry. you MUST conceal your pistol at all times. He could lose his cpl. False. Please cite a reference to back this claim.

    as far as the officers behavior i dont agree with it but i dont like someone being a smart ass to me and being i know the laws regarding "ccw" In my eyes, the second be broke the law, he was no longer a peace officer but was a thug harrassing me under the color of law. If he didn't want to deal with my mouth, then he shouldn't have harrassed me. He was a rolling stone living in a glass house... he had no business treating me the way he did. Respect is a two way street... he failed to show me an ounce of respect or humanity. In all fairness, I demonstrated far more restraint than he did. I never cussed at him nor threatened him, afterall.

    i might have his @#$% revoked. Check with your supervisor and ask about the recent teletype that went out after my incident in Detroit... it properly addresses the law and should correct your misunderstandings. Check with your union and city attorneys as well to verify that everything is legit. If, after you have done your due diligence, you still want to push the issue... I would be willing to oblige you in your attempts to have me revoked for legally openly carrying. Be warned, however, that I will see to it that you're held responsible for breaking the law. I'm not out to get people in trouble... but people who are hard headed must learn things the hard way sometimes. I'm not saying YOU are hard headed... I'm just speaking in general. Hopefully you will take the high road and do your own due diligence in the matter and correct your misunderstandings. For the record... I openly carried when I filed my complaint (in person) with the OCI... they had nothing to say about it, even though they know I have a CPL.

    his rights were violated in respect that they tried to charge him with something he wasnt doing My rights were violated the second he placed me in handcuffs and illegally searched me.

    however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl... its a concealed pistols license... conceal your pistol. False. My CPL wasn't even a factor because I was openly carrying. My CPL does not matter in this case... not one bit. Nevermind the fact that he had no legal reason to even search me for a CPL to begin with... I was legally OPEN CARRYING and this does not require a CPL. Had he followed the law, he never would have known I had one.

    open carry is still legal It's never been illegal.

    one of those laws that needs to be changed but hasnt been There is no law that makes open carry legal... there are simply no laws that make it ILLEGAL because it is a Constitutional freedom (both State and federal). In order to "change the law" and make it illegal, you would need to change the Second Amendment to the US Constitution and Article One, Section Six, of the Michigan Constitution. There are, unfortunately, 6 States in this country that violate this freedom. Fortunately Michigan is not one of them. I wouldn't live in a State that violated this right.
    it is what we learned in the law portion of academy... if you are interested i will try to look for the statues in my pen code book monday. I would be interested in seeing these statutes.

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    T Vance wrote:
    Tao wrote:
    like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:
    WHAT??? :what::what::what::what::what:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascivious

    Wow...

    And here's the MCL: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hir...me=mcl-750-335



    750.335 Lewd and lascivious cohabitation and gross lewdness.



    Sec. 335.

    Any man or woman, not being married to each other, who lewdly and lasciviously associates and cohabits together, and any man or woman, married or unmarried, who is guilty of open and gross lewdness and lascivious behavior, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00. No prosecution shall be commenced under this section after 1 year from the time of committing the offense.


    So does this mean that since I cohabit with my girlfriend that neither she nor I are protected by the castle doctrine?



    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

    Sec. 2.

    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    Hmmmm .....

    Bronson

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    Bronson wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Tao wrote:
    like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:
    WHAT??? :what::what::what::what::what:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascivious

    Wow...

    And here's the MCL: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hir4dz45oeeidlexktlrjz3s))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-335



    750.335 Lewd and lascivious cohabitation and gross lewdness.



    Sec. 335.

    Any man or woman, not being married to each other, who lewdly and lasciviously associates and cohabits together, and any man or woman, married or unmarried, who is guilty of open and gross lewdness and lascivious behavior, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00. No prosecution shall be commenced under this section after 1 year from the time of committing the offense.


    So does this mean that since I cohabit with my girlfriend that neither she nor I are protected by the castle doctrine?



    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

    Sec. 2.

    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    Hmmmm .....

    Bronson
    According to the law, as long as you haven't "done it" in over a year, you should be good to go.

    Of course, I think the "doing it" stops AFTER you get married. So yeah... you might be in trouble. :-P

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    The reality is simple though: Fat chance getting convicted of that. Even though it's a law and technically you might be charged (highly doubtful), they still have to prove it. So if you have to use deadly force in your home, while living with your girlfriend, just don't discuss your sex life. As long as nobody knows that you put your ho-ho near her hoo-hah, you haven't violated any law. :-)

    5th Amendment, my friend.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Any man or woman, not being married to each other, who lewdly and lasciviously associates and cohabits together...

    The way I am reading this I am not sure that sex is necessary to violate this law. Seems that simply living together is enough.

    If not, then I would still say that the only time this would be used is if you were involved in a shooting and they were just looking for something to hang you on if the shooting was justified. Even then, I agree with pleading the 5th. On the other hand, you have to hope the woman is strong enough to do the same. If they really wanted to hammer you, they would probably hang some type of accessory charge over her head and convince her to talk to incriminate you and let her off without any charges on the lewd and lascivious behavior so they could pina manslaughter or something on you.

    Of course here I go again with the crazy imagination stuff, but by the letter of the law you would not have the LEGAL right be there...

    Back on topic - OC'd at the Grand Traverse Civic Center yesterday for about half an hour after I umpired a baseball game. No problems.
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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Tao wrote:
    Ok, my buddy is a good guy, means well, and if he takes the intellectual high road, I think he'll make a great cop.

    He just graduated from Detroit PD's academy, so I thought I would get his reaction to the recent DPD cluster, and sent him the link: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453.html

    I'm kind of at a loss how to respond, because I want to use some pejorative words, but he is a good friend after all.

    Help me out here. What's factually wrong, and how can I firmly correct him on it?

    Give him a break on grammar and format, it was an informal facebook message.

    the open carry thing... he is actually in violation of state statues. Once you have a "ccw" cpl you are obligated to comply with the laws in relation to a cpl.. you are now governed by those laws. once you have a cpl you no longer have the option of open carry. you MUST conceal your pistol at all times. He could lose his cpl.

    as far as the officers behavior i dont agree with it but i dont like someone being a smart ass to me and being i know the laws regarding "ccw" i might have his @#$% revoked. his rights were violated in respect that they tried to charge him with something he wasnt doing however they could detain him after finding out he had a cpl... its a concealed pistols license... conceal your pistol.

    here is the catch to open carry. you can openly carry a firearm in a holster in MI. once you get into a car you are in violation of ccw which is a felony. in order to transport a firearm legally gun and ammo separated and firearm out of reach. but for legal purposes so to and from a gun range or gun shop.

    open carry is still legal but in order to do so its very difficult. one of those laws that needs to be changed but hasnt been like how its technically illegal to live with a girl you are having sex with. lude and lascivious behavior look it up. crazy @#$%.
    I asked where, exactly, that info came from, and his reply:

    it is what we learned in the law portion of academy... if you are interested i will try to look for the statues in my pen code book monday.

    if this applies to you... STOP OPEN CARRY

    also what was explained when I received my license
    So, did this guy ever come up with the citation that he THOUGHT this law came from? Enquiring minds want to know.
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    I look forward to hearing Tao tell us the law his friend is going to look up. I'm interested in, "the rest of the story".

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Any man or woman, not being married to each other, who lewdly and lasciviously associates and cohabits together...

    The way I am reading this I am not sure that sex is necessary to violate this law. Seems that simply living together is enough.
    Emphasis added in red. Simply living together is not enough. You could live with a sibling or roommate of the opposite sex.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I fail to see how the thread is derailed. The OP posted about his friend, the DPD officer/trainee. I'm curious to know whether or not he ever came up with a chapter and/or verse for the law that says if you have a CPL you must conceal.

    I'm pretty sure we all know he's not going to find it, but I'm curious as to what his answer/explanation might be.
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    I fail to see how the thread is derailed. The OP posted about his friend, the DPD officer/trainee. I'm curious to know whether or not he ever came up with a chapter and/or verse for the law that says if you have a CPL you must conceal.

    I'm pretty sure we all know he's not going to find it, but I'm curious as to what his answer/explanation might be.
    Yeah, but it's got noting to do with "cats and dogs sleeping together".

    Some people got a little side tracked. It happens. what else are we gonna do while were waiting for that officer to come up with non-existant MCL's.

  21. #21
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    ghostrider wrote:
    Big Gay Al wrote:
    I fail to see how the thread is derailed. The OP posted about his friend, the DPD officer/trainee. I'm curious to know whether or not he ever came up with a chapter and/or verse for the law that says if you have a CPL you must conceal.

    I'm pretty sure we all know he's not going to find it, but I'm curious as to what his answer/explanation might be.
    Yeah, but it's got noting to do with "cats and dogs sleeping together".

    Some people got a little side tracked. It happens. what else are we gonna do while were waiting for that officer to come up with non-existant MCL's.
    You probably have a good point there.

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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    LMFAO!!!!

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    Regular Member Tao's Avatar
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    I just sent him a message back asking for cites. Like I said, he's a good guy, and I hope he puts in due dilligence and takes the intellectual high road.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Tao wrote:
    I just sent him a message back asking for cites. Like I said, he's a good guy, and I hope he puts in due dilligence and takes the intellectual high road.
    It is understandable. A lot of people who get into law enforcement, think they've been taught everything, when in fact, their instructors have only scratched the surface.

    There are a number of links in this forum to various LEO sites that point out how OC is legal in this state. You might track a few of those down and pass them on to him. More than a few come from the Michigan State Police.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    42

    Post imported post

    Maybe this is a good time for a OC event in Detroit...





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