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Thread: Told by grocery store manager I can CC in his store...legal?

  1. #1
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    So, after Van Hollen's recent announcement, I decided to start OCing myself. I'm young, just out of college, and don't have much money, so the concept of dealing with Brad Krause's situation frankly scared me off of OCing before, particularly living in Madison.

    Despite living in this asylum, I'm a libertarian-leaning conservative. So, while I value my second amendment rights, I also respect the rights of private property owners to make the rules on their property. I therefore called my normal grocery store and spoke to the owner to determine if they had any policy about customers carrying firearms. He said they had no policy, but if they "had to adopt one", it would be against them. His manner when speaking seemed very uncomfortable, so I said it was fine, but he would no longer receive my business. I did the same at the next closest grocer, and was outright told they did not allow it.

    Then I came to the third closest, Woodman's. I was told that they would be all right with my carrying, as long as the weapon was concealed. At first, I made it clear that general concealed carry was illegal. However, they re-iterated that carrying concealed in the store was fine. I took this as another rejection, until I talked it over with a few friends. One of them pointed out that CCing on private property is legal, as long as you have consent of the owner. Can I get some confirmation on this?

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    Repeat from me from another thread on this subject:

    If you ask permission to enter a store armed, the chances are better than 50/50 that you will be asked to disarm by a sheepish manager.

    NEVER NEVER ask permission to enter a store armed! Just do it.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Yea, I agree with you smith. Just walk right on in and go about your business. If they ask you to leave or say that you can't OC in their store then get out right away. You cannot be arrested if you leave immediately. If you stay and argue with them or do anything other than leave it is considered trespassing.
    The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Only from your paid attorney should you accept a conclusion in law. IANAL believe that a property owner may conceal on his premises. I do not recall that a property owner can grant the privilege to conceal.

    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
    a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
    weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    Notwithstanding s.
    939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
    include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission
    warden. History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.

    The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
    the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).
    A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
    a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
    (1986).

    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
    s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
    2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
    State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

    A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
    by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
    view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
    section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

    There is no statutory or common law privilege for the crime of carrying a concealed
    weapon under s. 941.23. State Dundon, 226 Wis. 2d 654, 594 N.W.2d 780 (1999),
    97−1423.

    Under the facts of the case, the privilege of of self−defense was inapplicable to a
    charge of carrying a concealed weapon. State v. Nollie, 2002 WI 4, 249 Wis. 2d 538,
    638 N.W.2d 280, 00−0744.

    The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
    possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
    in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
    to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
    restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
    arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
    sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
    operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State
    v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State
    v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.

    A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
    weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
    the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
    concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
    substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
    and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
    only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
    arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.
    This section is constitutional as applied in this case. The defendant’s interest in
    exercising his right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security by carrying a concealed
    weapon in his vehicle does not substantially outweigh the state’s interest in
    prohibiting him from carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle. State v. Fisher,
    2006 WI 44, 290 Wis. 2d 121, 714 N.W.2d 495, 04−2989.

    Judges are not peace officers authorized to carry concealed weapons. 69 Atty. Gen.
    66.

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    MadisonRebel wrote:
    Then I came to the third closest, Woodman's. I was told that they would be all right with my carrying, as long as the weapon was concealed. At first, I made it clear that general concealed carry was illegal. However, they re-iterated that carrying concealed in the store was fine. I took this as another rejection, until I talked it over with a few friends. One of them pointed out that CCing on private property is legal, as long as you have consent of the owner. Can I get some confirmation on this?
    I don't buy it.

    In counterpoint to the good things he said, ADA Kassel said in Hamdan under discussion with one of the female justices (Forget if it was J. Abrahamson or J. Bradley) that if she was sitting in her own homeand had a gun locked in a (windowless) gun cabinet (ie out of plain sight), technically that was a violation, even if no prosecutor in their right mind would bother to push a case on it.

    See P105. I know I heard it in the oral arguments, so feel free to look it up and paste an exact quote.

    http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/D...mp;seqNo=16460


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    Keep Calm and Carry On

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    MadisonRebel wrote:
    I was told that they would be all right with my carrying, as long as the weapon was concealed. At first, I made it clear that general concealed carry was illegal. However, they re-iterated that carrying concealed in the store was fine. I took this as another rejection, until I talked it over with a few friends. One of them pointed out that CCing on private property is legal, as long as you have consent of the owner. Can I get some confirmation on this?
    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not include a commission warden who is not a state-certified commission warden.

    I would say absolutely not, do not carry concealed. There are several mentions of the OWNER or one's home, but as you would not be in your home and you would not be the owner, I say NO, concealed is illegal at this time, do not do it.


    Having said that, I also agree with others here, I carry. Those that don't like it (BestBuy -- Stevens Point / Plover) will let us know.



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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    There is no question at all, that I CAN give you permission to conceal a gun on my property. If am the owner, I get to make that call. I can give that privilege to anyone I want, my workers, or my friends (just like my home). I do believe it has to be inside though, no parking lot conceal...

    One thing I would not do with public places like a store, I would not just go with word of mouth. I would need the store to put it on paper, or post it. If anything were to come up, word of mouthcould get you busted...

    Best bet, is not to ask. Just do it, and be very nice to everyone you see. Thenicer you are, the better we all look.

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    AaronS wrote:
    There is no question at all, that I CAN give you permission to conceal a gun on my property. If am the owner, I get to make that call. I can give that privilege to anyone I want, my workers, or my friends (just like my home). I do believe it has to be inside though, no parking lot conceal...
    Please site your source for this comment.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Even if the store owner gives you permission I would not take the risk. What if he's wrong? He cannot give you his permission to break the law. 941.23 clearly states

    Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    Imo, don't CC. Not worth the risk. IANAL
    The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Only from your paid attorney should you accept a conclusion in law.
    AaronS wrote:
    There is no question at all, that I CAN give you permission to conceal a gun on my property.
    watta blissfull world he must live

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    Let's focus on the OC issues, and not the legality CCW right now. I don't want to be the one saying "But officer, skippy the store manager gave me permission to CCW in his store...."

    I'm with smithman on this. If the business does not have signs stating no weapons allowed, OC in that business. If they don't want you to do so, they will ask you to leave. Be respectful and polite, and leave. Make sure that you tell the manager that you will never again do business there, and post your experience in the appropriate thread so that others can avoid that business as well. Then, if they still don't post signs, many of us will OC there just so that the manager can tell us to leave too.

    I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but if the business doesn't have 'no weapons' signs posted, then OC.

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    This isn't about CC it is about OC, remember that!

    Carry On!

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    Yes PLEASE don't call around asking for permission to OC. You will throw up an immediate defensive reaction.

    As an example, I have OC'd in various pick n save dozens of times.

    If I call and ask the manager, they will probably take the most bane, safe, knee-jerk response they can come up with and just say no.

    On the other hand, if we OC in stores as we wish, and we know as always it doesn't create a scene, and never an issue (as evidenced by the hundreds of OC experiences people have posted on this forum) and one day the manager walks though the store and see's someone OC'ing. Says to one of the cashiers "is that person carrying a gun?" and the cashiers response is "people do in here all the time" then the manager is MUCH more likely to shrug their shoulders and say "oh... ok" and do nothing.

    Give places an opportunity to have a positive TOTALLY non-eventful experience with Open Carry.

    Don't call them and ask permission which they will almost certainly say no to.

    Even for liablity purposes. NO manager is going to stick their neck out. They don't know a caller on the phone from Boo. For all they know you are Jeff Dahmer reincarnate. If something happens and you say "hey manager X said i could" they are placing themselves in a liablity position.

    Don't try to shirk off responsibility. Don't place others in a position to be liable. Just go OC. Allow the manager the solidarity and peace of mind to be able to say "I knew nothing about it"

    please please please don't ask for permission. Its the worst thing you can do for the movement and for others who want to OC. If you are too scared to OC in a store, don't. But don't freak out a manager calling to ask permission who is then going to put up a sign and ruin it for the rest of us.

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    Was going to post a reply but will start a new thread.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Was going to post a reply but will start a new thread.
    I was going to start a new thread but will post a reply..... Sorry, couldn't resist J

    AaronS wrote:
    There is no question at all, that I CAN give you permission to conceal a gun on my property. If am the owner, I get to make that call. I can give that privilege to anyone I want, my workers, or my friends (just like my home). I do believe it has to be inside though, no parking lot conceal...
    There's still a question. Theonly thing you are protected by if you decide to do this is case law. Now, that particular case lawis written into the statute but, if I understand correctly, youcan certainlystillbe arrested. They'll let the DA decide what to do. Arrest first and let the DA sort them out, so to speak.
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    Well, looks like (once again), I stuck my foot in my mouth… Yea, I guess I can fit the whole thing in, all at once…

    I just can’t say enough, how much this forum has saved me (might even keep me out of jail).

    I was under the impression that State v. Hamdan gave us the right to conceal in our own home, or for that matter in our own stores. I am wrong. Hamdan did not get charged, in the end, but he did have a very long fight, and maybe got lucky. I guess all he was doing was moving his gun, and the pocket was just the first step in the process of him securing it. He, also, had been robed so much, even the cops felt bad for him. If I was found in that position, I do not think the court would have any pity on me (even though the law does say “as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
    sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
    operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises.”.



    Again, for years, I have thought that my concealed gun was ok in my own home, and it looks like it is not. Again, this site has taught me more about the law, and saved me a lot of legal problems.



    Thanks for correcting my very wrong concept of what a homeowners rights are in Wisconsin.





    Aaron


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    No1 wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Only from your paid attorney should you accept a conclusion in law.
    AaronS wrote:
    There is no question at all, that I CAN give you permission to conceal a gun on my property.
    watta blissfull world he must live
    Any fool on the street can give you permission for any number of activities that are illegal by statute. Jaywalking, running red lights, speeding, assault on the guy he doesn't like...

    The question is: Is such permission LEGAL? Is it recognized? Would the LEO say, "Yes, you broke the law but....", Would the DA elect not to prosecute? Would the judge/jury find you not guilty because of the ALLEGED permission granted by another who was not legally allowed to grant such permission?

    If I told you that you could assault my neighbor while you were both on my property and you were to do so, would you be innocent in the eyes of the court for such actions?

    SINCE THE LAW HERE SAYS THAT THE ONLY PERSONS EXEMPT FROM CONCEALED CARRY RESTRICTIONS ARE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND EVEN THEN THEY MUST PROVE THIS IS THE CASE.... A PROPERTY OWNER CANNOT BY LAW GIVE YOU PERMISSION THAT IS LEGALLY RECOGNIZED TO CONCEALED CARRY WHILE ON SAID PROPERTY OWNERS PROPERTY!

    Remember, IANAL! This is NOT legal advice! Consult your own attorney for FACTUAL MATTERS OF LAW and even then you might be wise to get a second/third opinion!

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    I use to cc around my house assuming that was legal. Now, I agree, why take the chance. Open carry. Its a better deterent anyway.

  19. #19
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    I'm going to risk getting screamed at for a double post, but here goes, and remember, I'm not an attorney, this is NOT legal advice, just the facts as I find them.

    In the Hamdan decision the WSC basically did decide YOU have the right to carry a concealed weapon in your home or place of business. Now my bet is that you will still be detained, disarmed, arrested, and charged, but you should win in court.

    Having said that, YOU the owner, cannot GIVE PERMISSION to any one else to carry concealed on/in your home or business.

    So NO, you cannot carry concealed in the grocery store, or the church, or anywhere else unless you are the OWNER, and even then you will still need legal representation.

    I am not against the idea of CC, but in Wisconsin, it is a definite no-no.

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