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Thread: CC in church - is it legal with permission of deacons/elders?

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    Regular Member Horseman's Avatar
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    I am new, and I have a question. If the deacons or elders or whoever runs the church agree to have certain members CC for purposes of security, can they legally do so? What if a LEO happens to attend on Sunday and make an arrest, is the prior permission a valid defense? I would appreciate it if you could point me to the relevant law or other helpful info.

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    hmm more free legal advice? http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/stats.html ch941

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Horseman wrote:
    I am new, and I have a question. If the deacons or elders or whoever runs the church agree to have certain members CC for purposes of security, can they legally do so? What if a LEO happens to attend on Sunday and make an arrest, is the prior permission a valid defense? I would appreciate it if you could point me to the relevant law or other helpful info.
    Horseman: Welcome to the forum.

    NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!



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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO! Check out this post from another member, it should answer your question. Please remember that nothing you find here is a substitute from someone qualified to give legal advice, such as an attorney.


    Doug Huffman wrote:
    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
    a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
    weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    Notwithstanding s.
    939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
    include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission
    warden. History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.

    The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
    the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).
    A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
    a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
    (1986).

    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
    s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
    2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
    State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

    A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
    by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
    view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
    section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

    There is no statutory or common law privilege for the crime of carrying a concealed
    weapon under s. 941.23. State Dundon, 226 Wis. 2d 654, 594 N.W.2d 780 (1999),
    97−1423.

    Under the facts of the case, the privilege of of self−defense was inapplicable to a
    charge of carrying a concealed weapon. State v. Nollie, 2002 WI 4, 249 Wis. 2d 538,
    638 N.W.2d 280, 00−0744.

    The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
    possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
    in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
    to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
    restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
    arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
    sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
    operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State
    v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State
    v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.

    A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
    weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
    the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
    concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
    substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
    and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
    only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
    arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.
    This section is constitutional as applied in this case. The defendant’s interest in
    exercising his right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security by carrying a concealed
    weapon in his vehicle does not substantially outweigh the state’s interest in
    prohibiting him from carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle. State v. Fisher,
    2006 WI 44, 290 Wis. 2d 121, 714 N.W.2d 495, 04−2989.

    Judges are not peace officers authorized to carry concealed weapons. 69 Atty. Gen.
    66.
    The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    bnhcomputing wrote:

    NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!

    *
    I thought we could CC on private property? Can I not CC in and around my house and my business?

    Also, can't the OP be considered a security guard if the powers that be ask certain people to CC for security reasons?

    I would assume that a formal letter from the church board would be nice as a CYA.

    Is the church uncomfortable with Open Carry?

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    I have some comments on this...I will post later this afternoon when I get back.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    bnhcomputing wrote:

    NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!


    I thought we could CC on private property? Can I not CC in and around my house and my business?

    Also, can't the OP be considered a security guard if the powers that be ask certain people to CC for security reasons?

    I would assume that a formal letter from the church board would be nice as a CYA.
    I thought the same thing, and I am not sure why we cant CC in our own homes, but it does liik like we can not. Again, I missed this once, so please dont take my word on it. It would be a good question for our state AG.
    Is the church uncomfortable with Open Carry? AT this time, I would not CC anyplace in the state if I could help it.

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    Is communion wine an alcoholic beverage?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Lammie wrote:
    Is communion wine an alcoholic beverage?
    Does it require a Class B license?

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    Communion whine is not sold on the premisses for consumption. There is no liquor licensing for churches.
    Try this if they will not let you open carry in the church then tell them you will find a different church to attend.
    There are churches that do not care if you open carry. These are the churches that recognize the difference between church and state.
    Personally while I believe in God and I teach my children in accordance with the Bible, I do not believe in churches. They only want your money.

    When my son was in the hospital he was 6 months old and extremely ill, Our church was notified by the hospital chaplin and no one bothered to even send us a simple note or say a prayer during service. So with that in mind what good does a church do you? Other than to take 6% of your income and if you won't contribute 6% then they don't want you as a member. That is a fact.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Don't know if we should be going into the God and Guns stuff...

    As far as I (now) know, CC is bad. Sounds like just about any place is bad for CC.

    Get a real small gun, that way people wont see it on your hip...?

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    Doesn't have anything to do with God and guns. Just the fact that if your church really wants you as a member of their congregation than they will except you for who you are. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Personally while I believe in God and I teach my children in accordance with the Bible, I do not believe in churches. They only want your money.

    When my son was in the hospital he was 6 months old and extremely ill, Our church was notified by the hospital chaplin and no one bothered to even send us a simple note or say a prayer during service. So with that in mind what good does a church do you? Other than to take 6% of your income and if you won't contribute 6% then they don't want you as a member. That is a fact.
    Did you actually read the original post? The OP was asked to be part of the churches security unit and he wanted to know if he could legally CC.

    What does this have to do with you rant against churches?

    I'm sorry that your church let you down. Mine wouldn't of and doesn't pass the offering plate. There is a small box at the back and a small notice in the bulletin that says that all monetary gifts are to be deposited in the box.

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    What it has to do with my "RANT" is that the church does not have the authority to allow you to CC so therefore you have to OC, communion wine has nothing to do with it. And just like you have posted things in the past that have gotten off topic maybe you should consider that before jumping on another poster.


    1st Amendment remember?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    What it has to do with my "RANT" is that the church does not have the authority to allow you to CC so therefore you have to OC, communion wine has nothing to do with it.
    This is the 1st time you mentioned this. All you said is that 'whine' (sic) didn't need a license since they didn't sell it. This is is 1st time you mentioned CC wasn't allowed.

    I support your 1st amendment rights I just thought bringing up your treatment by the church had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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    The point I was trying to make was that the churches really don't care about you as an individual. They care about a large congregation that brings in lots of money above everything else. I figured since the OP brought up CC I didn't have to bring it up a second time. CC is illegal everywhere in Wisconsin there is no reason to keep asking about it or talking about it. Right this moment in time OC is all that matters here. CC will come later I am sure but I will not vote for CC if it means I lose OC. Period!

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Back to the subject, Concealed Carry is permissable on private property.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Please cite your source!

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    State VS Hamdan

    It does depend on the circumstances. But it can be considered legal in your home or business. I really couldnt make sense if the owner can extend that to visitors.

    http://www.wisbar.org/res/sup/2003/01-0056.htm
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Reading the case, it is vague as to whether a business owner can 'grant' the right of CC to another.

    In addition, who is the 'owner' of a church (legally, not religiously)?

    As I read it, even I as a business owner can't CC unless I am providing security so unless there is a history of crime in my neighborhood.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    The point I was trying to make was that the churches really don't care about you as an individual. They care about a large congregation that brings in lots of money above everything else.
    That's an extremely large brush your painting with there. Sounds you haven't found yourself a true bible believing church. With the number of liberal churches around the US that's not surprising, it is tough to find a good church. I pray you and yours will find one you can have confidence in.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    I'm going to risk getting screamed at for a double post, but here goes, and remember, I'm not an attorney, this is NOT legal advice, just the facts as I find them.

    In the Hamdan decision the WSC basically did decide YOU have the right to carry a concealed weapon in your home or place of business. Now my bet is that you will still be detained, disarmed, arrested, and charged, but you should win in court.

    Having said that, YOU the owner, cannot GIVE PERMISSION to any one else to carry concealed on/in your home or business.

    So NO, you cannot carry concealed in the grocery store, or the church, or anywhere else unless you are the OWNER, and even then you will still need legal representation.

    I am not against the idea of CC, but in Wisconsin, it is a definite no-no.

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    Well said.

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    OK. So in regard to the original topic, I have never seen anything which makes CC legal on any property other than your own. Homeowners can CC on their property, including the yard. I believe that renters can CC but only inside their specific apartment. Business owners can CC anywhere on their business property, but there is no exception in the law or case law to support them allowing others who do not co-own the business to CC. If someone has a clear support for this, please post the relevant part for all to view.

    Now for the complicated parts. The bible does not prohibit owning of guns, in fact when studying the bible it is clear that God needs some people to act on behalf of others to defend life and liberty. The issue is the people who have not studied the bible and its relation to self-defense and those people often wrongly assume that pacifism is expected in all situations.

    In regard to other things which have been posted:

    1. There are good churches and bad churches. One cannot apply the bad churches behavior to all churches. All church's behavior and motives (those of the leadership and pastoral staff) will be judged by God, this is stated in the Bible, and the leader's bad churches will be judged accordingly.

    2. Churches are not immune from crime. The church collects money in offerings. The reason why is not that the churches' goal is to amass a large money pot, it is because the Bible commands Christians to give some portion of their salary back to God. Did you hear about the layoffs of salaried staff at Elmbrook church? They don't have the offerings to support their operations currently.

    3. I have found at least 5 nationally publicized acts of violence at a church where someone was injured or killed with knives or guns at church IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS. For every bad event that receives national attention, there are 10 more which only get local coverage. For every event that gets local coverage, there are 10 more which are stopped or deterred prior to happening due to church security or other ways. Churches have shootings. The church has large numbers of people attending services where they cannot fight back effectively. Also, criminals also assume that Christians are unarmed, and this is true since most Christians do not carry guns.

    With that said, here is my opinion. As a person attending a church service, it is more prudent to conceal than to carry openly. As a person who is "on duty" serving for the church (usher, security, sound-man, etc..) it is more conducive to OC, though I think still CC is preferred. The reason being is that pastoral staff wants the church to be inviting, and OC by volunteer security people may not provide that image based on an individual's comfort level. Unfortunately, since there are people in the church who do not understand self defense, they may be scared by a gun being present on a parishioner’s hip. If that same gun is present openly on someone who is "on duty" serving in the church, it is less intimidating.

    I have discussed OC with my pastor who is an avid shooter. He supports the right to do it, but advised me against it at church due to the above reasons, but told me that at any given service they have off-duty LEOs and he has told them specifically to carry concealed. Because there are good people with guns in service, I do not feel that I must carry to protect the my life and the lives of other people in the service. Though I would prefer to carry, the only way I think carrying a gun in church is appropriate is by concealing.

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