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CC in church - is it legal with permission of deacons/elders?

Woodchuck

Regular Member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
306
Location
West Coast, Wisconsin, USA
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J.Gleason wrote:
The point I was trying to make was that the churches really don't care about you as an individual. They care about a large congregation that brings in lots of money above everything else.
That's an extremely large brush your painting with there. Sounds you haven't found yourself a true bible believing church. With the number of liberal churches around the US that's not surprising, it is tough to find a good church. I pray you and yours will find one you can have confidence in.
 

bnhcomputing

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Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,709
Location
Wisconsin, USA
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I'm going to risk getting screamed at for a double post, but here goes, and remember, I'm not an attorney, this is NOT legal advice, just the facts as I find them.

In the Hamdan decision the WSC basically did decide YOU have the right to carry a concealed weapon in your home or place of business. Now my bet is that you will still be detained, disarmed, arrested, and charged, but you should win in court.

Having said that, YOU the owner, cannot GIVE PERMISSION to any one else to carry concealed on/in your home or business.

So NO, you cannot carry concealed in the grocery store, or the church, or anywhere else unless you are the OWNER, and even then you will still need legal representation.

I am not against the idea of CC, but in Wisconsin, it is a definite no-no.
 

smithman

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
718
Location
Waukesha, Wisconsin, USA
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OK. So in regard to the original topic, I have never seen anything which makes CC legal on any property other than your own. Homeowners can CC on their property, including the yard. I believe that renters can CC but only inside their specific apartment. Business owners can CC anywhere on their business property, but there is no exception in the law or case law to support them allowing others who do not co-own the business to CC. If someone has a clear support for this, please post the relevant part for all to view.

Now for the complicated parts. The bible does not prohibit owning of guns, in fact when studying the bible it is clear that God needs some people to act on behalf of others to defend life and liberty. The issue is the people who have not studied the bible and its relation to self-defense and those people often wrongly assume that pacifism is expected in all situations.

In regard to other things which have been posted:

1. There are good churches and bad churches. One cannot apply the bad churches behavior to all churches. All church's behavior and motives (those of the leadership and pastoral staff) will be judged by God, this is stated in the Bible, and the leader's bad churches will be judged accordingly.

2. Churches are not immune from crime. The church collects money in offerings. The reason why is not that the churches' goal is to amass a large money pot, it is because the Bible commands Christians to give some portion of their salary back to God. Did you hear about the layoffs of salaried staff at Elmbrook church? They don't have the offerings to support their operations currently.

3. I have found at least 5 nationally publicized acts of violence at a church where someone was injured or killed with knives or guns at church IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS. For every bad event that receives national attention, there are 10 more which only get local coverage. For every event that gets local coverage, there are 10 more which are stopped or deterred prior to happening due to church security or other ways. Churches have shootings. The church has large numbers of people attending services where they cannot fight back effectively. Also, criminals also assume that Christians are unarmed, and this is true since most Christians do not carry guns.

With that said, here is my opinion. As a person attending a church service, it is more prudent to conceal than to carry openly. As a person who is "on duty" serving for the church (usher, security, sound-man, etc..) it is more conducive to OC, though I think still CC is preferred. The reason being is that pastoral staff wants the church to be inviting, and OC by volunteer security people may not provide that image based on an individual's comfort level. Unfortunately, since there are people in the church who do not understand self defense, they may be scared by a gun being present on a parishioner’s hip. If that same gun is present openly on someone who is "on duty" serving in the church, it is less intimidating.

I have discussed OC with my pastor who is an avid shooter. He supports the right to do it, but advised me against it at church due to the above reasons, but told me that at any given service they have off-duty LEOs and he has told them specifically to carry concealed. Because there are good people with guns in service, I do not feel that I must carry to protect the my life and the lives of other people in the service. Though I would prefer to carry, the only way I think carrying a gun in church is appropriate is by concealing.
 
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