• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

CC in church - is it legal with permission of deacons/elders?

Horseman

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
55
Location
, ,
imported post

I am new, and I have a question. If the deacons or elders or whoever runs the church agree to have certain members CC for purposes of security, can they legally do so? What if a LEO happens to attend on Sunday and make an arrest, is the prior permission a valid defense? I would appreciate it if you could point me to the relevant law or other helpful info.
 

bnhcomputing

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,709
Location
Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Horseman wrote:
I am new, and I have a question. If the deacons or elders or whoever runs the church agree to have certain members CC for purposes of security, can they legally do so? What if a LEO happens to attend on Sunday and make an arrest, is the prior permission a valid defense? I would appreciate it if you could point me to the relevant law or other helpful info.

Horseman: Welcome to the forum.

NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!
 

GlockMeisterG21

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
637
Location
Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Welcome to OCDO! Check out this post from another member, it should answer your question. Please remember that nothing you find here is a substitute from someone qualified to give legal advice, such as an attorney.


Doug Huffman wrote:
941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
Notwithstanding s.
939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission
warden. History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.

The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).
A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
(1986).

To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

There is no statutory or common law privilege for the crime of carrying a concealed
weapon under s. 941.23. State Dundon, 226 Wis. 2d 654, 594 N.W.2d 780 (1999),
97−1423.

Under the facts of the case, the privilege of of self−defense was inapplicable to a
charge of carrying a concealed weapon. State v. Nollie, 2002 WI 4, 249 Wis. 2d 538,
638 N.W.2d 280, 00−0744.

The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State
v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State
v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.

A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.
This section is constitutional as applied in this case. The defendant’s interest in
exercising his right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security by carrying a concealed
weapon in his vehicle does not substantially outweigh the state’s interest in
prohibiting him from carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle. State v. Fisher,
2006 WI 44, 290 Wis. 2d 121, 714 N.W.2d 495, 04−2989.

Judges are not peace officers authorized to carry concealed weapons. 69 Atty. Gen.
66.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
imported post

bnhcomputing wrote:
NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!

 

I thought we could CC on private property? Can I not CC in and around my house and my business?

Also, can't the OP be considered a security guard if the powers that be ask certain people to CC for security reasons?

I would assume that a formal letter from the church board would be nice as a CYA.

Is the church uncomfortable with Open Carry?
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
bnhcomputing wrote:
NO, Concealed Carry is illegal, do not do it!
I thought we could CC on private property? Can I not CC in and around my house and my business?

Also, can't the OP be considered a security guard if the powers that be ask certain people to CC for security reasons?

I would assume that a formal letter from the church board would be nice as a CYA.
I thought the same thing, and I am not sure why we cant CC in our own homes, but it does liik like we can not. Again, I missed this once, so please dont take my word on it. It would be a good question for our state AG.
Is the church uncomfortable with Open Carry? AT this time, I would not CC anyplace in the state if I could help it.
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Communion whine is not sold on the premisses for consumption. There is no liquor licensing for churches.
Try this if they will not let you open carry in the church then tell them you will find a different church to attend.
There are churches that do not care if you open carry. These are the churches that recognize the difference between church and state.
Personally while I believe in God and I teach my children in accordance with the Bible, I do not believe in churches. They only want your money.

When my son was in the hospital he was 6 months old and extremely ill, Our church was notified by the hospital chaplin and no one bothered to even send us a simple note or say a prayer during service. So with that in mind what good does a church do you? Other than to take 6% of your income and if you won't contribute 6% then they don't want you as a member. That is a fact.
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Don't know if we should be going into the God and Guns stuff...:)

As far as I (now) know, CC is bad. Sounds like just about any place is bad for CC.

Get a real small gun, that way people wont see it on your hip...?
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Doesn't have anything to do with God and guns. Just the fact that if your church really wants you as a member of their congregation than they will except you for who you are. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
imported post

J.Gleason wrote:
Personally while I believe in God and I teach my children in accordance with the Bible, I do not believe in churches. They only want your money.

When my son was in the hospital he was 6 months old and extremely ill, Our church was notified by the hospital chaplin and no one bothered to even send us a simple note or say a prayer during service. So with that in mind what good does a church do you? Other than to take 6% of your income and if you won't contribute 6% then they don't want you as a member. That is a fact.

Did you actually read the original post? The OP was asked to be part of the churches security unit and he wanted to know if he could legally CC.

What does this have to do with you rant against churches?

I'm sorry that your church let you down. Mine wouldn't of and doesn't pass the offering plate. There is a small box at the back and a small notice in the bulletin that says that all monetary gifts are to be deposited in the box.
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

What it has to do with my "RANT" is that the church does not have the authority to allow you to CC so therefore you have to OC, communion wine has nothing to do with it. And just like you have posted things in the past that have gotten off topic maybe you should consider that before jumping on another poster.


1st Amendment remember?
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
imported post

J.Gleason wrote:
What it has to do with my "RANT" is that the church does not have the authority to allow you to CC so therefore you have to OC, communion wine has nothing to do with it.

This is the 1st time you mentioned this. All you said is that 'whine' (sic) didn't need a license since they didn't sell it. This is is 1st time you mentioned CC wasn't allowed.

I support your 1st amendment rights I just thought bringing up your treatment by the church had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

The point I was trying to make was that the churches really don't care about you as an individual. They care about a large congregation that brings in lots of money above everything else. I figured since the OP brought up CC I didn't have to bring it up a second time. CC is illegal everywhere in Wisconsin there is no reason to keep asking about it or talking about it. Right this moment in time OC is all that matters here. CC will come later I am sure but I will not vote for CC if it means I lose OC. Period!
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
imported post

Reading the case, it is vague as to whether a business owner can 'grant' the right of CC to another.

In addition, who is the 'owner' of a church (legally, not religiously)?

As I read it, even I as a business owner can't CC unless I am providing security so unless there is a history of crime in my neighborhood.
 
Top