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Thread: H.A.F.B

  1. #1
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    So I was planning on taking my family to the air show today or tomorrow but wasn't sure what HAFB policy was for OC? Is that something one can do or not do? Just trying to find out what to expect.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Not sure about the legality of it, but even if it is legal, you are on U.S. Government property instead of Utah land.

    You will lose your protection under the Utah code, and it most likely would not turn out well.

    I say don't even try it, unless you have authorization from the base commander.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Not sure about the legality of it, but even if it is legal, you are on U.S. Government property instead of Utah land.

    You will lose your protection under the Utah code, and it most likely would not turn out well.

    I say don't even try it, unless you have authorization from the base commander.
    so that pretty much goes for concealed as well, just don't even try it?

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Not sure about the legality of it, but even if it is legal, you are on U.S. Government property instead of Utah land.

    You will lose your protection under the Utah code, and it most likely would not turn out well.

    I say don't even try it, unless you have authorization from the base commander.
    so that pretty much goes for concealed as well, just don't even try it?
    I believe that it is legal to carry concealed as long as you don't go into any buildings (don't walk through the hangar!). What I mean is that I can't find any law that would restrict CC on base. USC 18 section 930 restricts firearms of any sort in federal buildings.

    But I could be missing something in the law, and I think you're wiser not to try it.

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    http://www.hill.af.mil/library/facts...t.asp?id=14146
    or
    http://www.hill.af.mil/2009hillafbopenhouse.asp


    LIST OF PROHIBITED ITEMS

    The following items will not be allowed inside the 2009 Hill AFB Open House and Air Show:

    Concealable Weapons

    Firearms and Ammunition
    Knives 4 inches or longer
    Leatherman/Gerber type tools
    Razor-type Blades and Utility Knives
    Box Cutters


    Self Defense Weapons


    Mace or Pepper Spray
    Martial Arts Weapons
    Disabling Chemicals


    Hazardous Items


    Explosive Materials
    Flammable Items
    Matches or Lighters


    Miscellaneous


    Ice Axes or Ice Picks
    Baseball Bats
    Bows and Arrows
    BB guns
    Toy Weapons
    Compressed Air Guns
    Rollerblades
    Skateboards
    Scooters
    Alcohol
    Pets
    "Rule 1: All Guns Are Always Loaded" - Jeff Cooper
    On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs - by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

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    bullseye wrote:
    LIST OF PROHIBITED ITEMS
    Yes, but it's not clear what this prohibition means. I doubt that it carries any legal force to civilians, though it would get you kicked off of the base.

    Again, I wouldn't test it.

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    That seems like a setup; 18USC930 specifies that anything other than a folding pocketknife with a blade less than 2.5 inches is illegal, yet here they say 4 inches. I wouldn't bring anything bigger than what Federal law says is legal; often, base regulations are written without investigating the actual LAW.

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    johnfenter wrote:
    That seems like a setup; 18USC930 specifies that anything other than a folding pocketknife with a blade less than 2.5 inches is illegal, yet here they say 4 inches. I wouldn't bring anything bigger than what Federal law says is legal; often, base regulations are written without investigating the actual LAW.
    18 USC 930 applies only to federal facilities, which that statute defines as buildings. As long as you stay outdoors that law has no effect.

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    swillden wrote:
    18 USC 930 applies only to federal facilities, which that statute defines as buildings. As long as you stay outdoors that law has no effect.
    I attended the show on Saturday. Left the gun behind. I may not like the law about guns on military bases, but I'm not ready to challenge it myself.

    Just to report on what was there (again, not that I agree with it), they had metal detectors set up prior to getting onto the tarmac where the planes were parked. ALL knives (including tiny key ring type pen knives) were prohibited. Fortunately, my wife warned me about my Gerber as we parked so I left it in the car.

    The airshow was great; the flying by the Thunderbirds fantastic; and the opportunity to see and even touch and climb onto/into various military aircraft a real treat. I remain a little disappointed in the CAF caving to political correctness and changing their name from "Confederate Air Force" to "Commemorative Air Force." But the historic planes are still great to see.

    Back on topic, whatever the details of the law may be, Hill AFB was NOT allowing any kind of weapon (including mace/pepper spray) or even tiny utility knife into the air show.

    Anyone who has issues with that may want to either avoid future airshows, or start the dialogue/fight now with the base CO. My limited experience with military security and even police is that they are polite and professional, but have ZERO interest in arguing or debating. They have been given orders and they will follow them, Period. I'd suggest not wasting your time or risking your freedom, fortune, or even safety on that one. There are MUCH better ways to wage that fight, and probably even better fights to be waging on RKBA long before we expend too much energy on rules for military bases.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    swillden wrote:
    I believe that it is legal to carry concealed as long as you don't go into any buildings (don't walk through the hangar!). What I mean is that I can't find any law that would restrict CC on base. USC 18 section 930 restricts firearms of any sort in federal buildings.

    But I could be missing something in the law, and I think you're wiser not to try it.
    Does it really?

    18 USC, Ch. 44, section 930 has an exception for hunting or other lawful purpose.

    IMHO personal protection is a lawful purpose.

    Here is what the Act actually says in section 101:



    The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618



    An Act to amend title 18, United States Code, to provide for better control of the interstate traffic in firearms.



    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that this Act may be cited as the "Gun Control Act of 1968".



    Title I -- State

    Firearms Control

    Assistance



    Purpose



    Sec. 101.
    The Congress hereby declares that the purpose of this title is to provide support to Federal, State, and local law enforcement officials in their fight against crime and violence, and it is not the purpose of this title to place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, or use of firearms appropriate to the purpose of hunting, trapshooting, target shooting, personal protection, or any other lawful activity, and that this title is not intended to discourage or eliminate the private ownership or use of firearms by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, or provide for the imposition by Federal regulations of any procedures or requirements other than those reasonably necessary to implement and effectuate the provisions of this title.



    IMHO personal protection meets the congressional intent of a lawful purpose.

    You are sharp Swillden, what is your opinion about personal protection?


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    I believe that it is legal to carry concealed as long as you don't go into any buildings (don't walk through the hangar!). What I mean is that I can't find any law that would restrict CC on base. USC 18 section 930 restricts firearms of any sort in federal buildings.

    But I could be missing something in the law, and I think you're wiser not to try it.
    Does it really?

    18 USC, Ch. 44, section 930 has an exception for hunting or other lawful purpose.

    IMHO personal protection is a lawful purpose.
    I agree, the BATFE doesn't, and it's anybody's guess as to what the US attorney who decides whether or not to prosecute, the judge who tries the case, and the jury you draw will think.

    I may or may not bother to take my gun out of my deep concealment holster and leave it in the car when i walk into the post office, but I'm not anxious to OC there to find out whether or not it's legal. I understand the rationale behind the courts' unwillingness to entertain hypotheticals (there's even a latin term for it, which I don't remember), but in some cases it means bad laws stay on the books because it's better to obey them than to risk becoming a criminal to test them.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    swillden wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    I believe that it is legal to carry concealed as long as you don't go into any buildings (don't walk through the hangar!). What I mean is that I can't find any law that would restrict CC on base. USC 18 section 930 restricts firearms of any sort in federal buildings.

    But I could be missing something in the law, and I think you're wiser not to try it.
    Does it really?

    18 USC, Ch. 44, section 930 has an exception for hunting or other lawful purpose.

    IMHO personal protection is a lawful purpose.
    I agree, the BATFE doesn't, and it's anybody's guess as to what the US attorney who decides whether or not to prosecute, the judge who tries the case, and the jury you draw will think.

    I may or may not bother to take my gun out of my deep concealment holster and leave it in the car when i walk into the post office, but I'm not anxious to OC there to find out whether or not it's legal. I understand the rationale behind the courts' unwillingness to entertain hypotheticals (there's even a latin term for it, which I don't remember), but in some cases it means bad laws stay on the books because it's better to obey them than to risk becoming a criminal to test them.
    Swillden,

    I agree.

    It is sad when we must fear government action for conduct that is clearly permissable in aplain reading of the law. It does not feel very free.

    Do you have any documentation for the statement that BATFE does not agree? I'm just lookingfor a starting point for a FOIA request.

    Thanks,

    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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