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Thread: Anything I should know about OC in Colo Sprgs?

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    New to OC. Colorado Springs.

    I've been intending to get my CCW whenever I can justify the cost of the course, but I came across this site recently, and think it's awesome!

    CCW is great for personal defense, but OC will do so much more! Actively deterring crime from your person and raising public awareness for starters...

    Is there anything I should know before OC'ing in Colorado Springs? I hear the sheriff encourages it? Is it illegal to carry anywhere? (I moved here from Vegas, and I remember the libraries had "no gun" stickers ... illegal there being a government building?) Is there any sort of 'round-in-the-chamber' thing? Or anything concerning public transportation (if I ever need it for some reason)? Obviously, businesses have the right to have their own policies and tell you you can't bring a gun in (if they choose to refuse your business), but are any businesses "special" where it's actually illegal to carry? Any legalities concerning ignoring business's 'no guns' signs, or is it just a policy/asked-to-leave-or-trespassing thing?

    Has anyone run into much harrassment issues with the cops, or are they pretty cool here? Colo Springs is still pretty conservative.

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    Obviously stay away from post offices, federal buildings and schools.

    OC in Colorado Springs is rather uneventful, just as it should be.

    You can't OC into any Springs-owned City buildings. State law allows cities and towns to regulate OC, signs must be posted at each entrance. City Utilities, Memorial Hospital, and the airport are just a few places where OC in the Springs isn't legal and they are all posted.

    Public transport is kind of a gray area, I haven't really read up on it much, but I *think* you'd be okay if you were unloaded. I'm sure someone here can be more helpful and there is also a thread about that on here.

    Colorado doesn't have any restrictions about a round in the chamber for handguns, transporting long guns requires an empty chamber.

    You can carry into bars, alcohol-serving restaurants and liquor stores but it's illegal to be carrying while under the influence (there's no defined BAC for firearms like there is for driving, though).

    Generally, "NO GUNS" signs don't carry any legal weight, but if you don't leave when asked it's trespassing.

    Check out http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/23366.html for a downloadable tri-fold pamphlet I did back in March. It covers the major points and has Colo Revised Statute numbers included.

    Also here is CBI's CCW page: http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/relatedstats.asp
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    ooghost1oo wrote:

    SNIP:
    New to OC. Colorado Springs.

    I've been intending to get my CCW whenever I can justify the cost of the course, but I came across this site recently, and think it's awesome!
    I have been looking up the exact same information. And while I'm in Grand Junction, Colorado Springs is no different. You can carry anywhere you want, except: where federally prohibited (schools, post office, national parks, etc State statute 18-12-105.5) and as long as there is not a sign prohibiting firearms (State statute 29-11.7-104), you may carry there as well. However if a store owner/manager says that you cannot carry on his/her property, you MUST obey his/her rule, if you want you challenge them, you can show them the state law, but ultimatly you must obey the store manager's wishes on carry.

    Read the CBI's web site at PikesPeakMtnMan beat me to the reply.... mostly the same info though.

    EDIT: Sorry about the mis-information on the bank carry, took it out.


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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    PikesPeakMtnMan wrote:
    You can carry into bars, alcohol-serving restaurants and liquor stores but it's illegal to be carrying while under the influence (there's no defined BAC for firearms like there is for driving, though).
    Thanks for the info, guys. Will check out the links.

    So if (carrying) I have a beer with dinner, I make myself vulnerable to arrest regardless of actual intoxication level?

    It's actually illegal to wear a gun to the bank?
    Where can I find a list of all prohibited places? (If in the link above, disregard.)

    (edit) Is the Pikes Peak Library District government or private?

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    Wolf81504 wrote:
    You can carry anywhere you want, except: where federally prohibited (schools, banks, post office, national parks, etc State statute 18-12-105.5) and as long as there is not a sign prohibiting firearms (State statute 29-11.7-104), you may carry there as well.
    I'm not trying to nitpick, just trying to squash misinformation. Banks are not off limits to firearms, at least not by federal statutes. I don't know what the Colorado statutes say about carrying in a bank but there is no federal law against it.

    Here is a link to the federal law prohibiting carry into federally owned/leased facilities.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...0----000-.html

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    ooghost1oo wrote:
    PikesPeakMtnMan wrote:
    You can carry into bars, alcohol-serving restaurants and liquor stores but it's illegal to be carrying while under the influence (there's no defined BAC for firearms like there is for driving, though).
    Thanks for the info, guys. Will check out the links.

    So if (carrying) I have a beer with dinner, I make myself vulnerable to arrest regardless of actual intoxication level?

    It's actually illegal to wear a gun to the bank?
    Where can I find a list of all prohibited places? (If in the link above, disregard.)

    (edit) Is the Pikes Peak Library District government or private?
    I would not advise you to have ANY alcohol, whether you are carrying openly or concealed. Even if it is legal, let me give you a scenario. You have one beer at dinner, you get robbed in the parking lot and shoot and kill someone. Even though I'm sure you aren't impaired, that one beer could hurt you pretty bad in a trial depending on the prosecutor.

    It's not against federal law to carry into a bank.

    To PikesPeakMtnMan who said airport in Colorado Springs is off limits, you are only referring to the "secured" area of the airport correct?

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    ooghost1oo wrote:
    Where can I find a list of all prohibited places?
    Go to

    http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...d_statutes.htm

    and locate 18-12-214

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    Ian wrote:
    To PikesPeakMtnMan who said airport in Colorado Springs is off limits, you are only referring to the "secured" area of the airport correct?
    No, OC is illegal per city code at all City owned and leased buildings, including the Colo Spgs airport. Concealed carry is fine, including the airport...up until the "secured" area, of course. State law allows cities and towns to regulate OC if that town has a law on the books and entrances are posted properly.
    Colo Revised Statutes
    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/29-11.7-104.asp



    Colo Spgs Municipal Code
    9.7.107: OPEN CARRYING OF FIREARMS:

    A.It shall be unlawful for any person to openly carry any firearm within any building owned or leased by the City.
    B.The person or persons reporting directly to City Council who have administrative or supervisory authority over any building or specific area owned or leased by the City, including the City Manager, Chief Executive Officer of Colorado Springs Utilities, City Attorney, City Clerk, City Auditor, Municipal Court Administrator, Presiding Judge of the Municipal Court, Memorial Hospital Board of Trustees and their designees, are hereby authorized to post signs at the public entrances to City owned or leased buildings informing the public that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited.
    C.This section shall not apply to peace officers and shall not be deemed to affect or impair in any way the authority of any public or private property owner other than the City to prohibit the carrying of firearms into or upon other public or private property.
    D.This section shall not apply to an employee of the City or any of its enterprises who is authorized by the City Manager, the Chief Executive Officer of Colorado Springs Utilities, or the Chief Executive Officer for Memorial Health System to carry a firearm in the performance of that person's duties and who was, in fact, engaged in the performance of those duties.
    E.This section shall not apply to a private security officer holding a firearm endorsement while providing security services to the City or its enterprises pursuant to a contract with a private security agency. (Ord. 03-132; Ord. 07-197)
    http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/CO/...ings/index.htm
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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    PikesPeakMtnMan wrote:
    Ian wrote:
    To PikesPeakMtnMan who said airport in Colorado Springs is off limits, you are only referring to the "secured" area of the airport correct?
    No, OC is illegal per city code at all City owned and leased buildings, including the Colo Spgs airport. Concealed carry is fine, including the airport...up until the "secured" area, of course. State law allows cities and towns to regulate OC if that town has a law on the books and entrances are posted properly.
    Colo Revised Statutes
    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/29-11.7-104.asp



    Colo Spgs Municipal Code
    9.7.107: OPEN CARRYING OF FIREARMS:

    A.It shall be unlawful for any person to openly carry any firearm within any building owned or leased by the City.
    B.The person or persons reporting directly to City Council who have administrative or supervisory authority over any building or specific area owned or leased by the City, including the City Manager, Chief Executive Officer of Colorado Springs Utilities, City Attorney, City Clerk, City Auditor, Municipal Court Administrator, Presiding Judge of the Municipal Court, Memorial Hospital Board of Trustees and their designees, are hereby authorized to post signs at the public entrances to City owned or leased buildings informing the public that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited.
    C.This section shall not apply to peace officers and shall not be deemed to affect or impair in any way the authority of any public or private property owner other than the City to prohibit the carrying of firearms into or upon other public or private property.
    D.This section shall not apply to an employee of the City or any of its enterprises who is authorized by the City Manager, the Chief Executive Officer of Colorado Springs Utilities, or the Chief Executive Officer for Memorial Health System to carry a firearm in the performance of that person's duties and who was, in fact, engaged in the performance of those duties.
    E.This section shall not apply to a private security officer holding a firearm endorsement while providing security services to the City or its enterprises pursuant to a contract with a private security agency. (Ord. 03-132; Ord. 07-197)
    http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/CO/...ings/index.htm
    Thanks for clearing that up.

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    PikesPeakMtnMan wrote:
    Public transport is kind of a gray area, I haven't really read up on it much, but I *think* you'd be okay if you were unloaded. I'm sure someone here can be more helpful and there is also a thread about that on here.
    Public Transportation thread:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/25648.html

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    So what is it?

    Do we avoid OC'ing in buildings with signs posted at all entrances?

    or...

    Do we ignore signs and avoid OC'ing only when they have anti-weapon security personnel or devices at all entrances?

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    ooghost1oo wrote:
    So what is it?

    Do we avoid OC'ing in buildings with signs posted at all entrances?

    or...

    Do we ignore signs and avoid OC'ing only when they have anti-weapon security personnel or devices at all entrances?
    Cities can ban OC in certain buildings, so it would be illegal to OC if they are posted, but you could still CC.

    If there are metal detectors and security, it is illegal to CC, nothing in the law about not being able to OC (AFAIK) but you wouldn't be getting in regardless.
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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    ... but (signs) is for city-owned buildings only, right? Parks? CS Utilities? Court-houses?

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    You're right. IF cities have a law banning OC, it will most probably apply to city owned buildings and maybe parks or other spaces (though to be legal, all entrances would have to be posted). Here in the Springs, it's Memorial Hospital, the Pioneers Museum, the airport, Utilities and courthouses.

    If you see other "no guns" signs, then trespass laws would apply if you're asked to leave and don't. Those signs don't carry any weight of law.
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    PikesPeakMtnMan wrote:
    Generally, "NO GUNS" signs don't carry any legal weight, but if you don't leave when asked it's trespassing.
    I've been doing some "boots on the ground" research, san weapon - merely asking the question, and have found a few that most establishments will "ask you to leave the premises." Their words, not mine.

    So what does it mean to "ask?" Is that a demand, such as "On your knees! Hands on your head?" Does it even carry an implied demand, such as "We want you to leave our premises immediately."

    Or is it a mere request, to which the individual has the right of refusal under law, and to which the store owner would have no recourse after the fact?

    Store owner: "We told him to leave!"
    Judge: "No, you didn't. You asked him. He refused. There is implied right of both concent as well as dissent when you ask someone to do something."

    Personally, I think stores keep using the word "ask" because they know most of us will comply, while they avoid the appearance of setting any mandatory policy which might drive most of us (and friends, and family, and interested third parties) away.

    Let's face it - I think most companies realize the firearms carry by law-abiding citizens actually deters crime, but they're unwilling to loose the paying "OMG HE'S GOTTA GUN!" clientelle who've been hypersensitized by the media to wrongfully assume the open carry of a firearm is "illegal" or at least "bad," or "cause for worry."

    In short, the Wal-Marts enacting these policies are reacting to the extremes, not their mainstay customers, the majority of which support the right to keep and bear arms.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    since9 wrote:
    I've been doing some "boots on the ground" research, san weapon - merely asking the question, and have found a few that most establishments will "ask you to leave the premises." Their words, not mine.
    Most places, if asked directly, will immediately react and say "no guns." In practice, however, few places will ever actually say anything to someone OCing. Back when I first started to OC a few years ago I was a little nervous about carrying in businesses and called a few places (like Walmart, Target, etc) to see if I could OC and once a gun was mentioned the conversations immediately devolved into "no guns allowed." Of course, I carry in these places all the time with no problem.
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    I never ask, i just do it. most times no one even notices that i am OC'ing. if they want me to not carry a gun in their place of business, they will first have to notice it, then they have to approach me and ask me to leave or disarm.

    if they ask, i will comply. i'm not going to split hairs with them about whether they are asking or demanding. its their property, and its their perogative. i wouldn't want someone arguing with me on my property about whether i "asked" them to leave or whether i "demanded" that they leave. i certainly wouldn't want to have that silly conversation with the cops when they show up because of a mwag call. cops don't generally seem to care about semantics. they care about the dude with the gun on his hip that won't leave the store after being asked to.

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    bomber wrote:
    I never ask, i just do it. most times no one even notices that i am OC'ing. if they want me to not carry a gun in their place of business, they will first have to notice it, then they have to approach me and ask me to leave or disarm.

    if they ask, i will comply. i'm not going to split hairs with them about whether they are asking or demanding. its their property, and its their perogative. i wouldn't want someone arguing with me on my property about whether i "asked" them to leave or whether i "demanded" that they leave. i certainly wouldn't want to have that silly conversation with the cops when they show up because of a mwag call. cops don't generally seem to care about semantics. they care about the dude with the gun on his hip that won't leave the store after being asked to.
    My Point Exactly. Think about the "threat" that one may pose when questioning the owner on his right to have you leave or whether or not he's even asking you to leave... That owner may draw on you, reasonably suspecting that you will not be leaving- due to the string of questions following. Imagine wearing a 9- only to have the owners 9 about an inch from your skull because you didn't walk right out when requested.

    I'm sure the responding cop would agree with the owner. "He came in with his gun. I asked him to leave and he didn't. That's when I knew he could be big trouble, specially wielding that pistol.."

    Exactly the same situation when someone enters your HOME with a gun. You ask him to leave and he questions your ability to do so- or whether or not you are even demanding.. You're hosting a party.. Friends of friends of friends.. Someone walks in with a gun OC- Literally nobody recognizes this guy- you don't know him and ask him to leave... If he did ANYTHING except leave I would have my .45 on the back of his head in no more than a second.

    Point? Thanks.

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    I walked away and thought "How could we even be HAVING this conversation? What's going through someone's head when they decide to question that authority?

    Look, I understand that one may need to clarify whether this person (asking you to leave) is a cashier, a manager, or a General Manager. I totally get that. You don't want a cashier telling you to leave. Why? Because he has no authority over the occupants of the store.

    If there are any doubts, in anybody's mind, God help us. I don't need these kind of people walking my streets or living next to me. I'll just walk in.. So what if the cashier asks me to leave? Unless it's the "manager", I'm not going anywhere...

    After thought, who the Hell even really knows who has "Authority" over store occupants anyway? Policy differs from private place to private place, remember. You may find yourself in a store where the 73 yr old Customer Meet and Greet has the authority to tell you to leave. If you blow her off for the "manager" you are screwed when the cops showed up- You only get one chance to leave before you're criminally liable. You may have waived that right without knowing it, holding out for that "manager."

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    I walked away and thought "How could we even be HAVING this conversation? What's going through someone's head when they decide to question that authority?

    Look, I understand that one may need to clarify whether this person (asking you to leave) is a cashier, a manager, or a General Manager. I totally get that. You don't want a cashier telling you to leave. Why? Because he has no authority over the occupants of the store.

    If there are any doubts, in anybody's mind, God help us. I don't need these kind of people walking my streets or living next to me. I'll just walk in.. So what if the cashier asks me to leave? Unless it's the "manager", I'm not going anywhere...

    After thought, who the Hell even really knows who has "Authority" over store occupants anyway? Policy differs from private place to private place, remember. You may find yourself in a store where the 73 yr old Customer Meet and Greet has the authority to tell you to leave. If you blow her off for the "manager" you are screwed when the cops showed up- You only get one chance to leave before you're criminally liable. You may have waived that right without knowing it, holding out for that "manager."

    I feel that if you are confronted by a cashier to leave the store, you could asked to see the manager. More times than not, the manager will support what the cashier said, but at least you have an oppertunity to speak with the manager (the one in charge of the busienss of that store) to get more details of the policy of the store. All in all you will more than likely be leaving the store on your own or leaving in cuffs.

    -desettle

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    yeah, i would totally ask to speak with a manager. but beyond that, i'm not gonna argue. either they want my business or they don't. there isn't much to discuss after they ask you to leave.

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    bomber wrote:
    yeah, i would totally ask to speak with a manager. but beyond that, i'm not gonna argue. either they want my business or they don't. there isn't much to discuss after they ask you to leave.
    About the "manager" thing... Look I am NOT trying to pick at this issue but I feel like I HAVE to clear this up with an example.

    I own a business. I manage the business from home. I hire Ron to be the greeter. I say, "Ron, if anybody comes into this building with a gun I need you tell them to leave. If they don't leave call the police right away."

    Days later, Bomber comes into my store OC. Ron stops him at the double doors. Ron says, "Sorry, Bomber, but you cannot carry your weapon here. I need you to leave now."

    Bomber says, "No offense, Ron, but I would like to speak with your manager about this." Bomber keeps walking (or stands still) -

    EITHER WAY- NO matter what happens from this point forward- Ron's reaction will be the same

    Ron calls 911 immediatly to report this. Officers are on the way.

    I get a phone call, at home, from the police. They tell me that a man with a gun entered my business and did not leave when requested to do so. Would I like to press charges for.. you guessed it.. Trespassing.

    Even if Bomber made it passed Ron, to the "manager", he was already asked to leave once- officially. The manager will repeat Ron's words. The cops arrive and the manger says.. We told the guy to leave more than once. That's all the cops need to hear. You needed to leave the first time. If you left between talking to the manager and the cops showing up- you are on camera.


    Guys.. It's literally THAT easy to get into a bind. Even easier if I, the owner, had posted a No Firearms sign.

    The entire world doesn't work like Walmart or Sam's Club or Home Depot. There is no need for a chain of command in a private establishment.

    Once again.. in a private establishment there is NO need for any type of chain of command.

    You walk into my HOUSE OC and my aunt asks you to leave.. Legally you still have to leave.. Even though it was my aunt and not ME, whom you spoke with. When Me, the owner, backs up the aunt on the call- the cops won't hesitate to move forward with charges.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    bomber wrote:
    yeah, i would totally ask to speak with a manager. but beyond that, i'm not gonna argue. either they want my business or they don't. there isn't much to discuss after they ask you to leave.
    About the "manager" thing... Look I am NOT trying to pick at this issue but I feel like I HAVE to clear this up with an example.

    I own a business. I manage the business from home. I hire Ron to be the greeter. I say, "Ron, if anybody comes into this building with a gun I need you tell them to leave. If they don't leave call the police right away."

    Days later, Bomber comes into my store OC. Ron stops him at the double doors. Ron says, "Sorry, Bomber, but you cannot carry your weapon here. I need you to leave now."

    Bomber says, "No offense, Ron, but I would like to speak with your manager about this." Bomber keeps walking (or stands still) -

    EITHER WAY- NO matter what happens from this point forward- Ron's reaction will be the same

    Ron calls 911 immediatly to report this. Officers are on the way.

    I get a phone call, at home, from the police. They tell me that a man with a gun entered my business and did not leave when requested to do so. Would I like to press charges for.. you guessed it.. Trespassing.

    Even if Bomber made it passed Ron, to the "manager", he was already asked to leave once- officially. The manager will repeat Ron's words. The cops arrive and the manger says.. We told the guy to leave more than once. That's all the cops need to hear. You needed to leave the first time. If you left between talking to the manager and the cops showing up- you are on camera.


    Guys.. It's literally THAT easy to get into a bind. Even easier if I, the owner, had posted a No Firearms sign.

    The entire world doesn't work like Walmart or Sam's Club or Home Depot. There is no need for a chain of command in a private establishment.

    Once again.. in a private establishment there is NO need for any type of chain of command.

    You walk into my HOUSE OC and my aunt asks you to leave.. Legally you still have to leave.. Even though it was my aunt and not ME, whom you spoke with. When Me, the owner, backs up the aunt on the call- the cops won't hesitate to move forward with charges.
    Yes you are correct as the Colorado State Statues says:


    18-4-502. First degree criminal trespass.

    A person commits the crime of first degree criminal trespass if such person knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in a dwelling of another or if such person enters any motor vehicle with intent to commit a crime therein. First degree criminal trespass is a class 5 felony.

    18-4-503. Second degree criminal trespass.

    (1) A person commits the crime of second degree criminal trespass if such person:

    (a) Unlawfully enters or remains in or upon the premises of another which are enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or are fenced; or

    (b) Knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in or upon
    the common areas of a hotel, motel, condominium, or apartment building; or

    (c) Knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in a motor vehicle of another.

    (2) Second degree criminal trespass is a class 3 misdemeanor, but:

    (a) It is a class 2 misdemeanor if the premises have been classified by the county assessor for the county in which the land is situated as agricultural land pursuant to section 39-1-102 (1.6), C.R.S.; and

    (b) It is a class 4 felony if the person trespasses on premises so classified as agricultural land with the intent to commit a felony thereon.

    (3) Whenever a person is convicted of, pleads guilty or nolo contendere to, receives a deferred judgment or sentence for, or is adjudicated a juvenile delinquent for, a violation of paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section, the offender's driver's license shall be revoked as provided in section 42-2-125, C.R.S.


    Proof of dwelling crucial for first degree trespass. The crucial distinction between first degree criminal trespass and second and third degree is that the prosecution must prove the additional element that the property which was unlawfully entered is a dwelling for first degree trespass. People v.Marshall, 196 Colo. 381, 586 P.2d 41 (1978).


    Second degree criminal trespass is a lesser included offense of second degree burglary (§18-4-203). Second degree criminal trespass requires the defendant to unlawfully enteror remain on the premises of another that are enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders. By definition, if a building or structure exists, entry of which is required for second degree burglary, the building or structure is designed to exclude intruders. Thus, all of the elements of second degree criminal trespass are included in the offense of second degree burglary. People v. MacBlane, 952 P.2d 824(Colo. App. 1997).


    18-4-504. Third degree criminal trespass.

    (1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.

    (2) Third degree criminal trespass is a class 1 petty offense,

    but:


    (a) It is a class 3 misdemeanor if the premises have been classified by the county assessor for the county in which the land is situated as agricultural land pursuant to section 39-1- 102 (1.6), C.R.S.; and

    (b) It is a class 5 felony if the person trespasses on premises so classified as agricultural land with the intent to commit a felony thereon.


    I hope this does not muddy up the discussion, but I thought it pertianent to what is being talked of here.

    Basically, as mentioned above; if you are asked to leave simply leave. You can always talk with the business owner over the phone or go back, without your gun, to discuss further.

    -desettle
    ”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

  24. #24
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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Look, I understand that one may need to clarify whether this person (asking you to leave) is a cashier, a manager, or a General Manager. I totally get that. You don't want a cashier telling you to leave. Why? Because he has no authority over the occupants of the store.
    After thought, who the Hell even really knows who has "Authority" over store occupants anyway? Policy differs from private place to private place, remember. You may find yourself in a store where the 73 yr old Customer Meet and Greet has the authority to tell you to leave. If you blow her off for the "manager" you are screwed when the cops showed up- You only get one chance to leave before you're criminally liable. You may have waived that right without knowing it, holding out for that "manager."
    Er... Desettle is correct. Furthermore, employees acting in good faith commensurate with store policy, be it verbal or written, are duly authorized agents of that store by virtue of their employment with that store, within the limits delineated in store policy and law.

    Thus, if store policy says "no firearms," any employee of that store, all the way down to the 16-year-old night restocker, carries "agency" for the store, and represent the interests of the store if they ask you to leave. There are legal limits for those under 18 with respect to liability (such contracts being held non-binding without an adult's authorization), but that's to protect both the store and the minor. Even the five-year-old son of a small business owner can legally ask you to leave if he's in the store's employ.

    Thus, if I were asked to leave, I'd leave, and would return later, sans weapon, to request a conference with a manager to clarify policy.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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