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Thread: PATRONIZING BUSINESSES HOSTILE TO OPEN CARRY

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Yesterday I decided to don my G-Code shoulder rig and with it my recently re-fitted PPK/s and go for a walk. (The leather is still stretching and I have to keep taking in the straps to keep the gun where I want it). One thing about OCing in a shoulder rig is all that strapping makes it stick out like a sore thumb. Not that I care, that is the whole point: Let the BGs know that there are armed citizens out there.

    On the way back home I decided to stop in to the nice little cheese shop across the street to pick up a snack ( I am rather fond of soft rinded cheeses and baguette bread). There were about six other customers in the shop. Now I must say I shoulda known that a wine-and-cheese shop is to weenies what a rock concert is to potheads. I was drilled through with laser-like stares of disapproval and a young mother ostentatiously moved to place herself between me and the stroller containing her kid. As I moved to the cheese display one guy - a big bullmoose of a man - tripped all over himself trying to get outta the way.

    I pretended not to notice as I placed my order, but one of the owners asked "is that a gun?" (yes I was tempted to sarcasm but no ). I very nonchalantly talked about the weapon and said yes, I carry openly because it's my right to defend myself. His wife then said "Oh, please don't bring guns into my shop again" as she rang me up.

    Today I stopped in for a little Stilton to crumble into my soup and the owner's wife was there. She said she is "all for" the RTKBA but that her shop caters to a social set that is "afraid of guns or just doesn't like guns" and that she didn't want her customers to be "scared away". She requested that on future visits to her shop I either leave the firearm at home or in the trunk of the car (I only live across the street) OR excersise my CHP and pull my shirt over the weapon.

    This couple are very nice folks, and they have opened a business with a thin margin in the middle of a recession. And they are not "vegan" weenies, they have a large selection of excellent charcouterie. And they are right as rain about one thing: A robber can only take what cash they have, but they right now need every single customer they can get. They know that they are serving sheeple and dont want them scared away.

    Our conversation ended with the understanding that if I entered the shop whilst armed, the weapon will be hidden from common observation; and I also advised her that as an owner she has the right (in Virginia) to carry a concealed weapon under her apron and (given the fact that there have been a few armed robberies of small businesses here over the years) maybe it would not be a bad idea.

    I would (if I had my druthers, which hardly anyone ever does) rather these shopkeepers educate the sheeple about the RTKBA and tell the weenieocracy that this is Virginia and not Hawaii or New York and that any private citizen carrying a firearm serves to let bad guys know that this is not a soft target. In would have loved to tell that mother who stepped between me and her kid that any bad guy wishing to harm them would take one look at JJ sitting high in the hoster and decided to look elsewhere for helpless victims. But these are my neighbors, trying to make a living (and providing quality product for reasonable prices to boot). They are not anti-gun by a long shot. But they are pro-profit and ask of me, as a freind and a neighbor and as a valued customer ONLY that I keep my weapon out of sight of the other customers while visiting their shop. And I am glad to accommodate them in this regard.

    Does this make me unworthy of calling myself an OC advocate? Or am I just being a good neighbor?

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    Well I would just tell them you understand their concerns and you will not be back..because you have your own set of concerns.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    SNIP Does this make me unworthy of calling myself an OC advocate? Or am I just being a good neighbor?
    You are both an OC advocate and a good neighbor.

    Develop rapport with the owners and staff over a month or two of visits. I'm betting there is a good chance they will let you OC again.

    I'mguessing the no-gun conversation was a first reaction. But, there must be some respect for 2A on her part, or she would not have let you come in CC.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Well I would just tell them you understand their concerns and you will not be back..because you have your own set of concerns.
    Ah, a fellow Ohioan and from the Dayton area to boot. I graduated from Wayne in 1971 (Huber Heights) Always nice to hear from folks from the old sod.

    There is a whole different dynamic going on in the Dayton Metropolitan Area. Here in Virginia you may go into an establishment that serves alcohol and drink if you carry openly and the OWNER does not object (but God help you if you get drunk while carryng a firearm). In Ohio, carry a firearm into a bar to tell a buddy it's time to go to a wedding and you are looking at five years. Look at all the "no firearms" signs in businesses and look at how sparsely populated they are, and wonder how these folks do not see the connection. Strange, but certain bars in Huber (notably "Bob's Gone Saloon" and "******* Flats" (which is technically in Dayton but might as well be in Huber) tolerate smoking if you pay a dollar fee to appease the health nazis if you are caught.

    Right here where I am and right now I am dealing with fellow business people who are trying to make their way through an uncertain financial climate. The cold hard fact here is that my openly carried firearm could (given the fact that the sheeple are numerous among their clientele) ruin the business of two honest citizens. I honestly would hate to say that I passively did worse by them than an armed robber might do actively (except that a sociopathic armed robber might make profits a moot point by killing them)

    If I could I would take them to upper North Main in Dayton around Helena, where in my day it was vibrant and safe; but where today you would think you were looking at something drawn by R. Crumb. Funny thing is that back in 1978 my block of King Street here looked like North Main these days, and today I live on what is the equivalent of North Main in its heyday.

    You do know what I am talking about, don't you?


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    If had been me and I hadn't paid, I would have told them, "I will no longer patronize your business and tell my friends not to as well." and promptly walk out. But it sounds like they are friendly, and they have the right to not have someone OC there, so who knows. I may have just paid for it and never gone back there.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Develop rapport with the owners and staff over a month or two of visits. I'm betting there is a good chance they will let you OC again.
    That's what I did. A store I frequent put a sign up about OC asking people to not OC in there store. After a few conversations with the manager I was allowed to do it. Just be polite, present your concerns, listen to theirs, and show them it's not you they should be concerned about. That your armed presence in their place of business is actually a positive. Some places like this prefer to do it on a case by case basis. Like most things in this world, it's a trust issue.
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    She was polite and diplomatic, you were polite and diplomatic and came to a mutual understanding. I would support these people whenever possible. As I've told many people before "you reason with reasonable people".

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    You OC'd in their business and got a negative reaction. She is OK with you carrying concealed but would prefer not to deal with offending the sheepie she depends on for most of her business. I don't see this as being unreasonable, so I think the accommodation you reached is OK if you need to go in there.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    There were about six other customers in the shop. Now I must say I shoulda known that a wine-and-cheese shop is to weenies what a rock concert is to potheads. I was drilled through with laser-like stares of disapproval and a young mother ostentatiously moved to place herself between me and the stroller containing her kid. As I moved to the cheese display one guy - a big bullmoose of a man - tripped all over himself trying to get outta the way.
    Why was it "ostentatious?" That doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of words to describe a woman who is fearful of a man with a gun

    But "ostentatious" isn't one of them.



    Alexcabbie wrote:
    In would have loved to tell that mother who stepped between me and her kid that any bad guy wishing to harm them would take one look at JJ sitting high in the hoster and decided to look elsewhere for helpless victims.
    Thank God you had the good sense to leave it alone with her. Kudos to you.



    Alexcabbie wrote:
    Does this make me unworthy of calling myself an OC advocate? Or am I just being a good neighbor?
    Considering the totality of your account, including the type of shop it is, I think it makes you a bit of a showoff. Somewhat...."ostentatious," as it were.



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    I think that the best move in your situation is to continue to purchase the products you desire from a convenient and reputable source (i.e. the cheese people) and at the same time establish a bond and trust with these people by simply concealing your handgun before you go in.

    To me it does not seem like that big of a deal, and granted I understand some people may cry "but it's the principal of the matter!" I understand that as well, but two stubborn mules pulling in opposite directions will not get anywhere.

    I say oblige them with the courtesy they deserve and perhaps someday they will oblige you with the same courtesy to OC, however, no progress will be made if one party simply doesn't budge.

    In my opinion, the worst scenario you could put yourself in is to simply walk out and say you'll never come back because they wouldn't let you OC. That to me smacks of childishness and non-diplomacy. If everyone who carried a gun acted in this manner when dealing with people who were against OC, we would be quickly branded as selfish, and narrow-minded.

    Just my two cents, I think you chose the right path here.

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    HankT wrote:
    Alexcabbie wrote:
    There were about six other customers in the shop. Now I must say I shoulda known that a wine-and-cheese shop is to weenies what a rock concert is to potheads. I was drilled through with laser-like stares of disapproval and a young mother ostentatiously moved to place herself between me and the stroller containing her kid. As I moved to the cheese display one guy - a big bullmoose of a man - tripped all over himself trying to get outta the way.
    Why was it "ostentatious?" That doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of words to describe a woman who is fearful of a man with a gun

    But "ostentatious" isn't one of them.
    But was she actually fearful? It doesn't really sound like it to me. I think it more likely that she was disgusted or disapproving and acted in a manner to make her point.

    Remember--we've read many stories on this board about people who proclaimed their fear of guns by confronting the person with the gun--something that they most certainly would not do if they were truly afraid.

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    I value property rights as much as the 2A, so I think you did well. The owners could very well have disallowed guns altogether. Respect the wishes of the property owner always lest you let make a claim that your rights trump theirs.

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    Had an appointment with a female doctor who had prominent signs at entry that guns were NOT allowed.

    I went in anyhow, concealed at that time. Of course she was aghast to see my weapon and asked if I saw her 'no guns'signs on her doors.

    I replied that I had, indeed seen them and ignored them. I then asked if she wished to examine me or should I leave?:what:

    Well....$$$$ took over and $he $aid $he'd examine me, and $he did. Wanted me to take a certain medicine and return in $ix week$. Then I a$ked If carrying my weapon would bother herin $ix week$?

    $he $aid NO a$ $he wa$ u$ed to me by now.

    Fellas....$$$$$ talks.:celebrate



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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Had an appointment with a female doctor who had prominent signs at entry that guns were NOT allowed.

    I went in anyhow, concealed at that time. Of course she was aghast to see my weapon and asked if I saw her 'no guns'Â*signs on her doors.

    I replied that I had, indeed seen them and ignored them. I then asked if she wished to examine me or should I leave?:what:

    Well....$$$$ took over and $he $aid $he'd examine me, and $he did. Wanted me to take a certain medicine and return in $ix week$. Then I a$ked If carrying my weapon would bother herÂ*in $ix week$?Â*

    $he $aid NO a$ $he wa$ u$ed to me by now.

    Fellas....$$$$$ talks.:celebrate

    Â*
    Well done sir...well done.

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    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    I've never understood how folks can be so vehement about THEIR right to carry, but not give the same consideration to those who don't want guns inTHEIR places of business. It's their place, and if they don't want guns there then no problem, I don't shop there!

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    It sounds to me like a good compromise. Each of you has a primary desire: the shop owner doesn't want the sheeple scared out of her shop, and you want to carry a weapon for your own protection. Carrying concealed gets both of you what you wanted most.

    A lot of people like to push for all open carry all the time no compromises. Really that's not very practical. The best way in my opinion to achieve universally accepted open carry is in steps of gradual acceptance through compromise. Moving a shop from anti-gun to pro-cc is a step in the right direction, and is far better than everyone standing firm on their own little ideals and not considering anyone else.

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    I've never understood how folks can be so vehement about THEIR right to carry, but not give the same consideration to those who don't want guns in THEIR places of business.
    Because property rights do not trump civil rights. It is as immoral for someone operating a public business to demand people relinquish their right of self defense as would be for the owner to demand that certain races or religions be excluded. Now a private establishment would be different (and yes, I believe such establishments have the right to make whatever entrance requirements they want, if enough customers take issue with said requirements, the establishment goes out of business). I have never understood why certain civil rights are treated like holy laws while others are ignored entirely.

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    I am not sure what you mean by "public business". If you mean a publicly traded company, it is still on private property, and they can still set conditions for entry, doing business, etc. The only difference is that they have shareholders to answer to.

    Only the government and its entities need worry about infringing on civil rights, private parties are not held to the same.

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    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    What the hell is a public business vs. a private business??

    I take my clothes to a local cleaners. It is owned and operated by some very nice folks. If those folks said they did not want me to bring my gun in their store, then I would either not bring it in there, or get my clothes cleaned somewhere else. It's their store, and they have the right to set the rules. I for one do not consider it a civil right to carry my weapon in their store if they don't want me to.

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    My two cents? This is opencarry.org, not concealcarry.org. If they wouldn't let you OC then I guess your money isn't good enough for them. Just tell them that'll you and you cronies will take you cash somewhere else. That method works 99.99% of the time.

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    Ironbar wrote:
    What the hell is a public business vs. a private business??

    I take my clothes to a local cleaners. It is owned and operated by some very nice folks. If those folks said they did not want me to bring my gun in their store, then I would either not bring it in there, or get my clothes cleaned somewhere else. It's their store, and they have the right to set the rules. I for one do not consider it a civil right to carry my weapon in their store if they don't want me to.
    I like the way you put this. And it's simple, too.

    Some OCers think it is their constitutional right to OC in such a location.

    I agree with you, btw. If the owner doesn't want that behavior on his/her property...there are plenty of other places to go. Free country...

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I've often thought about this "private property where the public is invited to enter by goods for sale on the premises" as opposed to "private property". Bear with me as I explain the distinction.

    My personal opinion... not based in law and actually not confined to the carry of firearms and, being a personal opinion, worth exactly... nothing.

    On "private property" where the general public is not invited by goods for sale the property owner should have full authority to determine (invite) who he/she will allow onto that property.

    On "private property where the general public is invited by goods for sale on the premises" then that property owner should expect to abide by the rights afforded the general public who enter.... including civil rights. All members of the general public and all rights. To do otherwise smacks of discrimination.

    Imagine a person being asked to leave a store for talking about a subject the owner doesn't like? Or being asked to leave because the person is wearing a crucifix?

    To my mind... once a property owner invites in the general public then the rights, all of the rights, of the general public should be honored.

    By the way... that would also apply to a homeowner who is having a garage sale because the general public has been invited onto the property by goods for sale.

    Edited to clarify...
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    I've often thought about this "private property where the public is invited to enter by goods for sale on the premises" as opposed to "private property". Bear with me as I explain the distinction.

    My personal opinion... not based in law and actually not confined to the carry of firearms and, being a personal opinion, worth exactly... nothing.

    On "private property" where the general public is not invited by goods for sale the property owner should have full authority to determine (invite) who he/she will allow onto that property.

    On "private property where the general public is invited by goods for sale on the premises" then that property owner should expect to abide by the rights afforded the general public who enter.... including civil rights. All members of the general public and all rights. To do otherwise smacks of discrimination.

    Imagine a person being asked to leave a store for talking about a subject the owner doesn't like? Or being asked to leave because the person is wearing a crucifix?

    To my mind... once a property owner invites in the general public then the rights, all of the rights, of the general public should be honored.

    By the way... that would also apply to a homeowner who is having a garage sale because the general public has been invited onto the property by goods for sale.

    Edited to clarify...
    +1 I agree with you, I like how you worded all that, very professional. A business shouldn't be able to choose what civil rights are and are not allowed in their store. If I want to go shopping your store while wearing a crucifix, then so be it, it's my God given right, if I want to shop with gun, then so be it, it's still a God given right. I believe the Second Amendment makes this pretty clear.

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    Bikenut: That is pretty much the way that I feel as well! A business that is 'open to the public' needs to respect the rights of the public! If it is open only by invitation or membership then that is a different story. Easy example: Wal-Mart is "Open to the Public" while Sam's Club requires a membership and is thus 'Private' and subject only to the consensus of its members.

    To the OP: I think that you handled the situation very well. While I may choose not to do business with a business that does not want me to carry, upon first encounter we have a duty to be diplomatic and address their concerns as well as educate them if possible. If we all 'return fire' by blatantly expressing that we will 'hurt their bottom line' (no longer do business/tell others not to patronize) then we have then become the bully. 'Kill them with kindness' is most often a more viable road to success!

    While I believe that 'open to public' businesses should be respectful of the 'publics' rights, we also must be respectful of everyone's opinions. We do not have to agree, like, or even accede to their opinions, but we must be RESPECTFUL, RESPECTABLE, and POLITE lest we be seen as the 'bullies'.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    I would make the polite rebuttal to local business owners, that OC generally does not frighten customers, rather, it is the behavior, hygiene, and dress of the person OCing that communicates the person is not a threat.

    I would also ask the owner to consider discreetly (and at a distance) following you around at their store, to gauge the reactions of customers, before making a decision on the matter. I think they will find things are not as bad as it seems.

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