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Thread: in any place where a CPL is required...

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    As there has been all this talk about drinking and carrying recently, I thought I'd bring up something I found in the forfeiture section.

    RCW 9.41.098 Forfeiture of firearms — Disposition — Confiscation. (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be: (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;
    From my own judgement, the only places where a CPL is required is in a car while carrying loaded, in a stadium or convention center that has marked no weapons AND does not apply to CPL holders, or when dropping your kids off at school.
    Common sense says that courts all over have tried to confiscate guns found on drunks, but it doesn't mention "under circumstances" (concealment) that require a CPL, merely "in a place," which would mean the previously mentioned places, unless I missed some.
    Is there any more to this?




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    cynicist wrote:
    As there has been all this talk about drinking and carrying recently, I thought I'd bring up something I found in the forfeiture section.

    RCW 9.41.098 Forfeiture of firearms — Disposition — Confiscation. (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be: (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;
    From my own judgement, the only places where a CPL is required is in a car while carrying loaded, in a stadium or convention center that has marked no weapons AND does not apply to CPL holders, or when dropping your kids off at school.
    Common sense says that courts all over have tried to confiscate guns found on drunks, but it doesn't mention "under circumstances" (concealment) that require a CPL, merely "in a place," which would mean the previously mentioned places, unless I missed some.
    Is there any more to this?


    and anywhere (except your property) that you decide to carry concealed......

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    So it's not a crime to be carrying while intoxicated, but your gun can be confiscated?



    How would the matter even be before the court? On a civil forfeiture action?

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    and anywhere (except your property) that you decide to carry concealed......
    But what I would say to this is that it is not required by law to have a CPL outside your house (with a few exceptions.) Hence open carry.
    In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required...
    Again, the only places where a CPL is REQUIRED is school parking lots, carry in a vehicle, stadiums, etc. It doesn't mention concealed or not.
    Any one know of any case law on this.

    How would the matter even be before the court? On a civil forfeiture action?
    From what I know of forfeiture cases (one happened to a friend of mine) is that it is before the court, and the standard of proof is "preponderance," which is very, very easy for the city/state to get, and they are motivated, especially in small towns, because they get to keep it.
    A friend of mine had cashed a paycheck (which she had documented proof of) and she was given a bad check by someone who owed her money, so she got arrested for some "payment instrument" offense, and then they confiscated her paycheck money and forfeited it to the city, determining that there was a preponderance of evidence that it was part of a larger scheme of money laundering. I was there at the proceedings. It's in appeal.


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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    One who is carrying while drunk would most likely be subject to 9.41.270 (the Circumstance provision). If that person had a CPL, it is possible that an attempt to revoke it might be made.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    amlevin wrote:
    One who is carrying while drunk would most likely be subject to 9.41.270 (the Circumstance provision). If that person had a CPL, it is possible that an attempt to revoke it might be made.
    The provisions don't stand alone, they are joined by "and", not "or". Even drunk (under circumstances), a person could argue that they were not at a "time and place" or carrying "in a manner". It's important to read that law carefully, as many (antis) cite it only partially with the intent to lose the AND clause.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    cynicist wrote:
    How would the matter even be before the court? On a civil forfeiture action?
    From what I know of forfeiture cases (one happened to a friend of mine) is that it is before the court, and the standard of proof is "preponderance," which is very, very easy for the city/state to get, and they are motivated, especially in small towns, because they get to keep it.
    A friend of mine had cashed a paycheck (which she had documented proof of) and she was given a bad check by someone who owed her money, so she got arrested for some "payment instrument" offense, and then they confiscated her paycheck money and forfeited it to the city, determining that there was a preponderance of evidence that it was part of a larger scheme of money laundering. I was there at the proceedings. It's in appeal.
    Any civil case is going to be "beyond the preponderance of the evidence" - roughly, "greater than 50% chance it's true." However, civil cases also weigh the level of guilt of each actor. Presuming she's innocent, I hope your friend not only wins but places a smackdown on those who prosecuted her. There is evidence forfeiture laws allowing law enforcement/the city/state/gov't to keep the forfeited money leads to abuse (duh). If that can be shown, there might actually be a chance at appeal (which deals with the way the case was handled, not the facts of the case).
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    And, again, a CPL is REQUIRED at any location, outside of one's own home or property that a person is in possesion of a concealed firearm.
    So then we can open carry drunk, but not CC.



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    NavyLT wrote:
    cynicist wrote:
    And, again, a CPL is REQUIRED at any location, outside of one's own home or property that a person is in possesion of a concealed firearm.
    So then we can open carry drunk, but not CC.

    That seems to be the way the law is worded.
    Anytime in anyplace that someone is carrying drunk could be in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of others.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    If you're drunk and carrying (OC or CC) please PM me so I can come smack you.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Very good point! And, I guess where forfeiture would come into play would be if they arrested you for public intoxication and you were carrying, they would CONFISCATE your firearm. Then, once you went to court, if were arrested in a place that required a CPL, you would not get your gun back.

    Apparantly, though, they can't arrest you just for carrying under the influence by itself, which I find to be concerning.
    I'd love to replace the current "no carrying in any place off limits to those under 21" with something that says "no carrying in any public place with a blood alcohol content over .08, subject to the same tests as those for driving."
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    NavyLT wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    cynicist wrote:
    And, again, a CPL is REQUIRED at any location, outside of one's own home or property that a person is in possesion of a concealed firearm.
    So then we can open carry drunk, but not CC.

    That seems to be the way the law is worded.
    Anytime in anyplace that someone is carrying drunk could be in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of others.
    Very good point! And, I guess where forfeiture would come into play would be if they arrested you for public intoxication and you were carrying, they would CONFISCATE your firearm. Then, once you went to court, if were arrested in a place that required a CPL, you would not get your gun back.

    Apparantly, though, they can't arrest you just for carrying under the influence by itself, which I find to be concerning.
    I concur number 1. Although I think they would find a reason to arrest you, public intoxication perhaps as most cities have a code against being drunk in a public place.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Apparantly, though, they can't arrest you just for carrying under the influence by itself, which I find to be concerning.
    There's also the drinking while driving aspect, something different and more dangerous. However, carrying with an open container sounds too far.

    as most cities have a code against being drunk in a public place.

    I may be mistaken, but I believe there is something about "disorderly" in those. At least where I live the charge is disorderly conduct, a cover-all from spitting, wearing gang colors, arguing, swearing, blocking traffic, etc.

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    I think something not mentioned yet in this debate on drinking is the difference between drinking and driving accidents versus shooting someone.
    Driving is inherently more dangerous than carrying, and if I'm not mistaken, death statistics show this. With a .o9, I doubt anyone would accidentally shoot someone (unless they're dumb enough already, but that may be the case since they're already drinking and carrying) that wouldn't otherwise.
    Point I'm trying to make is driving requires a great deal of care and attention, quick reactions, and all that while carrying requires simple safe handling, of even just lack of mishandling a gun.

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    Personally, I would like to see Washington adopt the same law as Idaho on this matter.

    1) It would be fair IMHO

    2) It would make our states uniform on the matter

    3) It punishes for for ACTUAL risky behavior, not for a NON risky behavior as our law does now...

    Notice that it does NOT prohibit the carry of an OCed weapon.

    TITLE 18, CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS, CHAPTER 33, FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
    18-3302B. Carrying concealed weapons under the influence of alcohol or drugs.It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed weapon on or about his person when intoxicated or under the influence of an intoxicating drink or drug. Any violation of the provisions of this section shall be a misdemeanor.
    I also like their CC statute much better.

    (7)Except in the person’s place of abode or fixed place of business, or on property in which the person has any ownership or leasehold interest, a person shall not carry a concealed weapon without a license to carry a concealed weapon. For the purposes of this section, a concealed weapon means any dirk, dirk knife, bowie knife, dagger, pistol, revolver, or any other deadly or dangerous weapon. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any lawfully possessed shotgun or rifle.

    I also prefer their version of our .270 statute. Not as much gray area.

    S18-3303. Exhibition or use of deadly weapon.Every person who, not in necessary self-defense, in the presence of two (2) or more persons, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon in a rude, angry and threatening manner, or who, in any manner, unlawfully uses the same, in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    TITLE 18, CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS, CHAPTER 33, FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
    18-3302B. Carrying concealed weapons under the influence of alcohol or drugs.It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed weapon on or about his person when intoxicated or under the influence of an intoxicating drink or drug. Any violation of the provisions of this section shall be a misdemeanor.
    What exactly does 'under the influence of an intoxicating drink' mean? I have had a beer while eating dinner many times. Would I have been under the influence?


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    NavyLT wrote:
    And, again, a CPL is REQUIRED at any location, outside of one's own home or property that a person is in possesion of a concealed firearm.

    a. You are arrested for something on the street and you are intoxicated and open carrying - I don't think forfeiture would be a legal option because a CPL is not required.

    b. You are arrested for something on the street and you are intoxicated and you are carrying a concealedfirearm - forfeiture WOULD be a legal option because a CPL IS REQUIRED at that location because of the concealedfirearm that you are carrying.

    c. You are arrested for something on the street and you are carrying a concealed firearm. The cop asks you for your CPL. Just try telling him that a CPL is not required at that location and see what he does.
    So, a person who is intoxicated and carry under a CPL gets his gun taken away but a person who is OCing and intoxicated does not??????:shock:

    That's not consistent. There should be no difference between OC and CC in the circumstance of an intoxicated carrier.

    Either:

    1) both intoxicatedOCer and intoxicated CCer should have his or hergun forfeited,

    or

    2) neither intoxicatedOCer and intoxicated CCer should havehis or hergun forfeited.



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    nathan wrote:
    What exactly does 'under the influence of an intoxicating drink' mean? I have had a beer while eating dinner many times. Would I have been under the influence?
    Not likely unless you were 75 pounds and had kidney problems. As you know, alcohol effects each person differently based upon body mass, metabolism, medical conditions, and medications used. Eating while drinking may also have a small diffusion effect. If you drink, regardless of carrying a firearm, you should be aware of your limits.

    "Under the influence" these days is normally considered by most jurisdictions to start at .08 bac. All states have adopted this level as the "under influence" mark for driving.

    Check out this link and use the tool for yourself to get a general idea of what your bac would be under various circumstances.

    Again, its all dependent on the individual, but I have never heard of anyone who is not allergic in some fashion being inebriated off of one beer in an hours time.

    http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm

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