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Thread: What would you do at a Wal-Mart type incident?

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    Seattle Gun Rights Examiner poses the question: What would you doin a Wal-Mart type situation?

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m6d8-WalMart-suspects-allegedly-staged-other-robberies-armed-citizens-debate-What-would-you-do




    If that doesn't work, try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/knmu6n



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    No discussion yet? Wow...

    Under "what would I do", I don't have a one-size-fits-all-situations answer, but certainly the example of Dan McKown is ever before me. Dan intervened without using his handgun in the Tacoma Mall shooting, and paid the price of a lifelong serious disability as a result.

    I don't have time to go and find all the original reporting, so take the following with a certain degree of caution--but I don't recall Dan ever saying in print that he held back because he couldn't safely take a shot, but rather because he was taken aback by the youthful appearance of the shooter.

    My takeaway message from that is that if you are going to intervene, do so decisively.

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    I've had some tactical training, but I think just going to the range is not enough. In order to confront bad guys, we need more training more often.If we are to be Sheepdogs, then we need to be trained, and that training is up to ourselves.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    "What would you do..."

    I submit that noone knows what they would do, even with extensive training, until they are actually in the situation requiring action.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    Regular Member Washintonian_For_Liberty's Avatar
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    j2l3 wrote:
    "What would you do..."

    I submit that noone knows what they would do, even with extensive training, until they are actually in the situation requiring action.
    While that is very true, I've faced down a very angry man with a shotgun before (I didn't have a weapon on me at the time) and was able to get him to back off and leave. When you have a weapon pointed at you, it really changes everything. My adrenaline was running strong and my hands were shaking a little. It took all I could muster just to keep my hands from visibly shaking. I have to admit, I was scared out of my wits, but I somehow found the strength to face this guy down. He was one of my mom's drunk boyfriends who we later had arrested and had his guns taken from him... but the night he held me and my mom at gunpoint was the night I decided I would never be without a weapon again... we were lucky that time... we both could have been killed.

    Of course to contrast that... I have a friend who was shot at while accidentally trespassing and became anti gun afterwards... don't understand his logic... but each of us will face these situations differently.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Gents, and ladies,

    I am grateful

    Keep them coming. I might be able to use some of this in a future Examiner column. Everything here appears to be very well thought out, no macho posturing, no chest-thumping verbal heroics.



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    With the various training courses I have been through for armed security detail, I know that I would take action. If I was in a position to do so and was witness to the crime and shooting, I would not hesitate to draw, aim and fire at the suspect, fleeing or not. I would not take time to aim for "wounding" shots. Two rounds center mass, if they don't drop, one round in the head. Anyone who makes the decision to murder someone for their property or their livery does not in my opinion deserve my mercy or pity. In a situation like that there is no time to think about the situation. You literally have only a second or two to act.

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    I agree. Make sure that anyone with you is safe. Make sure you have as clean a shot as possible and take him out as quick as possible.

    With me, it's center mass x2 head x1... unless the center mass x2 took him down too fast for my head x1 shot.

    The only moving targets I've ever shot were animals (and targets at the fair). Rabbits are fast and I've got them on the run, but I was using a 22LR not a pistol.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    Gents, and ladies,

    I am grateful

    Keep them coming. I might be able to use some of this in a future Examiner column. Everything here appears to be very well thought out, no macho posturing, no chest-thumping verbal heroics.

    I guess I stand corrected





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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I didnt see those post as chest thumping just what they would have done with thier training.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    It's great to say 2+1 (2 shoots to the body and 1 to the head).

    Isee this a lot but fundamentally it's "nice to say" but to do it even in a controlled environment is tough to do in real life... as the target may just be shooting back atyou.

    For many of us it's tough alone to practice with your conceal gear and to draw and shoot from your holster let alone shoot on the move..... and at a moving target. Most ranges do not allow you to do any of the above.

    What would I do? I can't honestly say as every situation and everyone reacts differently. Sure if you had enough information and time but even that may not be enough.

    From the circumstances of this particular shooting no one could of reacted even if they were standing within 20 feet and had witnessed it all. It sounds pretty much like the guy walked up behind the security and just shot him in the back of the head. No warning... no fuss. Just cold blooded. Just shot. By the time your brain can process what was going on - he's headed out the door.

    For those that do take on the responsibilities of carrying (concealed or open) I have an opportunity for you to practice with your gear. Deadline to register is this Thursday and you can find it under "Shooting Like the Good Old Days."

    Draw from your holster, Shoot on the Move! Good practice.... not competition.

    I have wanted to shoot like this when I couldn't but now I have the ability to host these types of shoots. I want to promote more carry (concealed or open).

    My goal: More honest armed citizens to defend themselves in Washington!

    Sunday, June 14that Renton Fish and Game Club http://www.rfgc.org

    Must pre-register with me. Please include full name, contact number and email.


    Dave, Good article. I still have my autographed copy of "Washington State Gun Rights andResponsibilites" I promote it to anyone that carry's.
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
    NRA Certified Instructor (pistol)
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    "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport!"
    Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I would love to attend that but have stommish that weekend.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Dave, I agree with you that if there is an "active" shooter, I would not feel anydisagreement with the first audiblesign of my involvement being the report from the muzzle of my carry pistol. Hypothetically, the fact that I "didn't give the guy a chance to put his gun down" does not mean I somehow cheated or was being a vigilante, it just means that I recognized the situation as being what it was and that I am not sufficiently skilled in word usage (and/or confident enough in the shooter's willingness to listen) to attempt to "talk him down."

    One must be sure of their intended target (don't shoot a victim who may be putting up a fight for their life) and be sure of your backstop, but also be confident that you can make substantial, accurate hits with your weapon before committing to engage. I would not recommend a citizen armed with a mousegun start engaging an active shooter with a long gun. Carry as much gun as you possibly can. Compact versions of service caliber pistols are easy enough to hide as to make effective firepower portable.If these and other emotional-variables that go hand-in-hand with making the initial decision to carry a weapon for defense are all satisfied, then a person may proceed in doing that which "any other reasonable person" would do in a similar situation.

    I understand the limitations placed upon law enforcement, they can not be everywhere at all times to prevent evil from happening. I choose to accept this, and take a couple of steps on my own to ensure the safety of myself and my family.

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    What to say?

    Do i stop him and ask politely to see his license to carry, or is it open carry at that point? Seriously,I don't know exactly what i would do.I thinkI would have to scan the situation as to how safe it would be to return fire, if there were too many people nearby,I wouldn't want to put them in harm's way more than they are at that moment. if a clear shot were available, with a safe background, I'd most likely try to take him out of the loop. This is a very hard decision to make, and even harder when not in an active combat environment. At least in combat, the answer comes a little easier (though the long-term effects never really leave your mind). Enlisting deadly force is never an easy thing to do, even harder when you're not the primary target. But allowing a felon to get away without attempting to prevent further criminal activity is, IMHO, unAmerican...
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Dave, I agree with you that if there is an "active" shooter, I would not feel anydisagreement with the first audiblesign of my involvement being the report from the muzzle of my carry pistol. Hypothetically, the fact that I "didn't give the guy a chance to put his gun down" does not mean I somehow cheated or was being a vigilante, it just means that I recognized the situation as being what it was and that I am not sufficiently skilled in word usage (and/or confident enough in the shooter's willingness to listen) to attempt to "talk him down."

    One must be sure of their intended target (don't shoot a victim who may be putting up a fight for their life) and be sure of your backstop, but also be confident that you can make substantial, accurate hits with your weapon before committing to engage. I would not recommend a citizen armed with a mousegun start engaging an active shooter with a long gun. Carry as much gun as you possibly can. Compact versions of service caliber pistols are easy enough to hide as to make effective firepower portable.If these and other emotional-variables that go hand-in-hand with making the initial decision to carry a weapon for defense are all satisfied, then a person may proceed in doing that which "any other reasonable person" would do in a similar situation.

    I understand the limitations placed upon law enforcement, they can not be everywhere at all times to prevent evil from happening. I choose to accept this, and take a couple of steps on my own to ensure the safety of myself and my family.
    I suppose this was what I was trying to say. I didn't want to come off as beating my chest or saying I'd be all macho and stuff... I'd first make sure my family was safe... and that means, if they're not yet out of harms way... I'd be making sure they were first. Then, I think I'd be making sure that if I was planning on taking a shot, that it the perp did not have a ton of people behind him... would I follow him until I got a clean shot? Depends on if he was continuing to shoot people... if he was, then I'd probably not wait to get a clean shot... what I mean is if he was shooting people like the VT shooter or other crazies who've gone on a rampage... but as for the Wal-Mart incident... I'd only take the shot if I felt my shot wouldn't hit an innocent.

    Dave, I was not trying to thump my chest... I was kind of trying to answer the question you posited.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Well, I waited from last night to see what might come of this
    but
    I've also had time to think of my response.
    And it is a thought out response, born of many a spoken scenario over years of defensive handgun practice.
    1. See to it my loved ones are as safe as I can make them under the circumstances.
    2. Be certain as I can reasonably be that the perp is or is willing to do great bodily harm or kill.
    3. Shoot til the perp is down and not offering to use their weapon.

    I don't have a 2 to the body/1 to the head recipe. Who knows what the scene will present.
    I don't have a fast and certain set of things that must be ordered or met. There are quite a few in my head, but many override others, and in the end #2 above is the criteria.
    Adrenaline will come into play. I have met and countered deadly force before. Adrenaline notwithstanding, my decisions are made long before the heat of the moment.

    Sorry if this somehow seems harsh, Dave, but this is what it takes (IMHO) to be able to react quickly and decisively when the SHTF. Calling for a conference and having a meeting to discuss the issues may work for Barack (or not) but they will not be part of my strategy.

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    So far I have seen only one response that is really accurate In my opinion and you know what that is worth. All the years I spent as a LEO, I was fortunate to be involved in a shootout only once, and I was on the fringe of the action. My perspective to this is :

    1: you will go to tunnel vision and time will slow to nearly a stop.

    2: You will probably have your hearing increase.

    3: then comes fight or flight and only time will tell on that, no matter how prepared you think you are.

    4: you might even wet your britches... I never, but I came close.

    5: you may not feel pain. In my encounter, the perp broke the stock off a mod 94 Winchester when he swung it at me and hit me on the shoulder. I never felt it until we were in the de briefing. DAMN that hurt!!! ( he had run out of ammo, and went baseball.)

    The one response that I feel was correct...You will not know until you are in the mix!!!



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    When I was in the Army we were told over and over "It's you're TRAINING that is going to save your Ass! The more you train, until the point it becomes second nature, the greater chance you will have 'when the agricultural byproduct hits the air distribution device'". For those who have been trained, make sure it is more than paper punching games. For those who have not, then get some.

    When all the training is under your belt there is still no guarantee that you will be able to defend yourself or another in the "Wal-Mart" situation but the chancesincrease. You can only hope thateverything has become instinctive and you react properly.


    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    "No plan of battle ever survives contact with the enemy." -Heinz Guderian

    Having some sort of plan however, is better than having non at all.

    I have taken several combat courses through my career and from them I have chosen to focus on some of the basic elements (Cover, Position, Backstop) so that they become ingrained movements and ingrained thoughts under even the worst situations.

    Just as practice of action breeds focused movement, so practice of mind breeds focused thought.

    However you choose to train, and whatever you choose to train in, the most important thing is just to train, and train often.

    Don't expect to be able to react to a situation, in a manner, that you have not taken every step to prepare yourself for. If the first quote don't get you, the second one most assuredly will.

    "As you train, so shall you fight."

    My .02 cents



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    Hammer and et al,

    Reading what Dave wrote and knowing what he writes I will make this assumption. He's not wanting or saying this or that should be done. The only point he wants to stress (that I see) is for anyone that chooses to carry, concealed or openly, is that these scenarios must be examined and one must ask himself or herself what would I do in that scenario. Would I? Could I?

    To use deadly force or not? If the answer is no then one really should not carry. There is no point. We each must come to a decision "ahead" of time what we would do if that need comes at us.

    First, you need to go through clear cut scenarios.... A BG is threatening a person with a knife and is about to stab or cause harm. You see this unfold in front of you. What would you do?

    So Dave wrote this article to get you thinking. What would you do if you were there and circumstances dicated A or B or C. This particular scenario there really was not time. So, let's say the BG stuck around and started shooting others?

    We need to think ahead of time most of the scenarios and what and why. Get the big questions down so you don't have to ask yourself during the event. Like would I use deadly force or not.....

    My $0.02



    When you carry it does come with legal, spiritual, financialand emotional responsibilities regardless if you know it or not.
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
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    www.shootonthemove.org

    "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport!"
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    I agree 100% Kim, and it's why I wrote what I did earlier.
    His article IS titled "What would you do...." tho, so the response is expected.
    All food for thought, and should be mentally explored so that when dire circumstances visit, small issues don't cloud clear judgements.


    oldkim wrote:
    Hammer and et al,

    Reading what Dave wrote and knowing what he writes I will make this assumption. He's not wanting or saying this or that should be done. The only point he wants to stress (that I see) is for anyone that chooses to carry, concealed or openly, is that these scenarios must be examined and one must ask himself or herself what would I do in that scenario. Would I? Could I?

    To use deadly force or not? If the answer is no then one really should not carry. There is no point. We each must come to a decision "ahead" of time what we would do if that need comes at us.

    First, you need to go through clear cut scenarios.... A BG is threatening a person with a knife and is about to stab or cause harm. You see this unfold in front of you. What would you do?

    So Dave wrote this article to get you thinking. What would you do if you were there and circumstances dicated A or B or C. This particular scenario there really was not time. So, let's say the BG stuck around and started shooting others?

    We need to think ahead of time most of the scenarios and what and why. Get the big questions down so you don't have to ask yourself during the event. Like would I use deadly force or not.....

    My $0.02



    When you carry it does come with legal, spiritual, financialand emotional responsibilities regardless if you know it or not.

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