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Thread: Greenfield to consider open carry measure

  1. #1
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    Here we go again.......
    I will be writing the alderwoman about this as well.

    Greenfield to consider open carry measure

    By Tom Kertscher of the Journal Sentinel
    Posted: Jun. 9, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    Greenfield – Following South Milwaukee, Greenfield will consider an ordinance that would allow police to ticket people who openly carry a gun into businesses that post signs prohibiting open carry.

    Ald. Linda Lubotsky said Tuesday that she will propose an ordinance, patterned after one being considered in South Milwaukee, on Monday.

    Businesses have the right under state law to prohibit open carry, but South Milwaukee and Greenfield don't have ordinances allowing police to write tickets to violators.

    Last week, the South Milwaukee Common Council unanimously supported its ordinance, which needs two more readings before it would be adopted. The minimum proposed fine is $2,500, and the maximum is $10,000.

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    Another city wasting tax dollars to support an illegal ordnance.

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    Our founding fathers would spit on things like this, and the people who write them.

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    GJD wrote:
    Another city wasting tax dollars to support an illegal ordnance.
    What would be the basis for ordinance being illegal? State unconstitutionality? State preemption?

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    I sent a letter to Alderperson Linda Lubotsky regarding this ordinance. We need to keep an eye on what South Milwaukee does, because Greenfield will merely copy their ordinance.
    I don't know how South Milwaukee can navigate around WI state statute 66.0409.
    We'll see.....

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I would consider this to be UNREASONABLE restriction. If I understand correctly the state can reasonably restrict per code. I would not consider this to be reasonable
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    WI Patriot wrote:
    I sent a letter to Alderperson Linda Lubotsky regarding this ordinance. We need to keep an eye on what South Milwaukee does, because Greenfield will merely copy their ordinance.
    I don't know how South Milwaukee can navigate around WI state statute 66.0409.
    We'll see.....
    What did you send to her?

    I was going to send one as well, but would like to have some template to go off of. I would like to keep with in the facts. As I live here I may have more credability???
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    It will be interesting to see what Greenfield does now that South Milwaukee pidgeon holed their proposed ordinance.

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    HankT wrote:
    GJD wrote:
    Another city wasting tax dollars to support an illegal ordnance.
    What would be the basis for ordinance being illegal? State unconstitutionality? State preemption?
    Yes & yes for both of your questions Hank, WI State statute 66.049 prohibits any local entitiyfrom enacting or enforcinglaws any more stringent and/or differing from current state law with regards to firearms.

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    I can see them giving a trespassing ticket but $2500 wow

  11. #11
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    It definately will be Nik. Do we have anyone that lives in greenfield that could go to the police station/ city hall and pick up a draft of the proposed ordinance? I was able to pick up a copy of south Milwaukees and post iton here, but make sure you call them before hand so they have it printed out and waiting. Otherwise I will if I have some free time tomorrow or this weekend.



    Ben











  12. #12
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    Below is a copy of the email I sent to the alderperson in Greenfield. Since South Milwaukee's ordinance may not go anywhere per that thread, Greenfield's may fizzle as well.
    Hat tip to Hugh Jarmis, from whose posts on the South Milwaukee related thread fueled some of the points I made here (credit to where credit is due - thanks, Nik)

    Alderperson Lubotsky,
    I am writing to question your proposed ordinance, following South Milwaukee, to fine individuals for openly carrying a firearm in a business with signage stating no firearms are allowed.
    I have a couple of issues with this type of ordinance. First and foremost is how this local ordinance would be in violation of Wisconsin State Statute 66.0409:
    Local regulation of firearms. (1) In this section: (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    Yours and South Milwaukee’s ordinance would be more stringent than state statutes, and is, by definition, not in accordance with State law.
    I understand that a business owner has the right to keep legally carried firearms from entering their business via posted signage. I, as a consumer, also have a right to not patronize that business. Currently, a business owner or representative can ask me to leave their premises, or refuse to serve me for many reasons. If I refuse to leave, I can be cited for trespassing or disorderly conduct. If I am legally carrying a firearm, and a business owner asks me to leave, I will. If I do not, does this not constitute trespassing; an already existing ordinance? What makes legally carrying a firearm more egregious, that it warrants up to a $10,000 fine?
    Also, what if the sign posted in a business is obstructed, falls down, or I fail to see it? Will I be fined $10,000 for not seeing a sign? Again, should it not be the responsibility of the business owner to ask me to leave?
    Since Attorney Van Hollen issued a memo on April 20th stating that openly carrying firearms in accordance with state statutes has been, and remains legal, there have been no issues related to open carry. In fact, I would think that business would appreciate law abiding citizens patronizing their business, armed or not. It would seem that a business is also making themselves a target with a “no firearms allowed” sign on their front door. This just gives criminals assurance that they can rob a business without the threat of being stopped by a legally armed citizen.
    I was in attendance at the open carry picnic in Greenfield on Memorial Day. As you well know, members at that picnic were better behaved and safer than many of those in attendance of the Dan Jansen “Family Fest”.
    Greenfield businesses are welcome to prohibit legally carried firearms from their premises. I and many others will take our business elsewhere. I ask that you do not proceed with this ordinance.
    Regards,
    name
    New Berlin, WI


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    WI Patriot wrote:
    Here we go again.......
    I will be writing the alderwoman about this as well.

    Greenfield to consider open carry measure

    By Tom Kertscher of the Journal Sentinel
    Posted: Jun. 9, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    Greenfield – Following South Milwaukee, Greenfield will consider an ordinance that would allow police to ticket people who openly carry a gun into businesses that post signs prohibiting open carry.

    Ald. Linda Lubotsky said Tuesday that she will propose an ordinance, patterned after one being considered in South Milwaukee, on Monday.

    Businesses have the right under state law to prohibit open carry, but South Milwaukee and Greenfield don't have ordinances allowing police to write tickets to violators.

    Last week, the South Milwaukee Common Council unanimously supported its ordinance, which needs two more readings before it would be adopted. The minimum proposed fine is $2,500, and the maximum is $10,000.
    Link????


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    Greenfield to consider open carry measure

    By Tom Kertscher of the Journal Sentinel
    Posted: Jun. 9, 2009 12:40 p.m.


    http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/47326872.html

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    One question I would raise is what if someone was out for a walk and remember he needed to purchase something from a store, only to see the store has this sign out front. He knows he will forget by the time he gets back home and he cannot store his gun anywhere at this time. I guess the store is willing to lose sales because of this.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Evidentially yes, but the success of "no guns, no money" comes from the demonstration of the magnitude of the loss of sales to the pro-gun community that is willing to boycott a prohibiting establishment.

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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    I would consider this to be UNREASONABLE restriction. If I understand correctly the state can reasonably restrict per code. I would not consider this to be reasonable
    Yes, we would all consider this unreasonable. It is also pre-empted since no fine is mentioned in state statutes for firearm bearing in private property.

    But all that aside, what is reasonable to gun rights advocates is often not reasonable to the sheeple and the bozos that run our government at the local, state and federal level. The reasonable test is subjective at best, and what is reasonable for one person to expect is often not reasonable for another.

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