Apparently, I'm "asking for trouble,"

saulsj · Jun 11, 2009

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So, I was accompanying my Dad yesterday to take his computer in for repair at the local Best Buy. Once I entered his vehicle, I was promtply lectured about open carrying.

The conversation was sparked, because as I said in the Nevada OC thread, I tend to unholster/unload my gun whenever I get into a vehicle.

About five minutes into our drive, he began on about carrying open. He lectured how I was "asking for trouble" but carrying a gun in the open, especially unloading it as I'm getting into the car. His reasons were pretty cut and dry, "You wouldn't want an over-zealous pedestrian or driver to see your gun and call the police.

Well, he does have a valid point, but IMO, a 15 minute visit from an LEO would be worth it to exercise my ability to open carry. I also would welcome the opportunity to provide education, if needed, to anyone who needed it.

My father is a former LEO for the state of California, and is active duty in the military - unfortunately, while he is a CCW holder, he seems to prefer his guns locked away and hidden. He rarely ever carried, concealed or otherwise. Which, is his deal - he also dislikes the number of guns I have purchased in the short time I've been 21.

He firmly believes that if you are open-carrying, you will be harassed and bothered by every passing LEO you may encounter, and bothered and harassed by every anti-gun looney that you meet.

Clearly, I feel differently on the subject, and it doesn't matter what degree of legal citation or logic I can give him, he constantly harrangs me about open-carrying.

I'm a firm believer in statement, "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost."

So far, I've yet to be bothered by anyone while open carrying, although I'm still very new to it, short of an employee at Wal-Mart. It is very rare in my experience to see many open-carrying in Carson City, but I'll be damned if I let the ignorant prevent me from exercising my right.

I am a law abiding, 21 year old male, with no criminal record, not so much as a speeding ticket. Just because I've got tattoos, a shaved head, and a gun, doesn't give anybody the right to assume I'm up to no good.

Anyone else run into this hard-nosed mindset? It's extremely frustrating...

Sorry if this seems silly, but I've been so impressed by the collective knowledge of the members of this site, I was hoping that perhaps someone may provide another perspective.

Felid`Maximus · Jun 11, 2009

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Why do you unholster or unload your gun before getting in your car? I keep my gun fully loaded at all times. There is no requirement to have unloaded handguns in cars.

The law does say that if you have a long gun you cannot have the chamber loaded, (although a fully loaded magazine can be inserted).

Further, a firearm can be anywhere in the vehicle with no permit required, so long as it is not actually concealed upon a person, such as in a pocket.

I've been questioned by law enforcement only a couple times for open carry and I've been carrying openly for about a year and a half practically everywhere that it is legal to so ever since I turned 18. There have been many times where I have passed by law enforcement who did not care.

Fortunately for me, my family and friends are very accepting of me.

I feel that if everyone carried a gun and knew how to use it, crime would be very low.

It is somewhat of a catch 22. Sometimes people get harassed for open carry, but the main reason is that it is uncommon. Fear of being harassed keeps it uncommon no doubt.

I feel that when people who own guns always try to hide the fact that they own and carry guns it adds to the negative stigma that guns have among many people. People shouldn't treat guns as a taboo subject. I'm proud to own guns and live in a country that allows me to own and carry them.

Pace · Jun 11, 2009

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I never understood the phrase "asking for trouble."

Yes, by open carry, you are asking for trouble, you asking to be noticed, you do run more risk of being shot by the police, being arrested... and so on.

That being said, part of any civil rights movement, seem to be all that and more. People don't think of it as a civil rights movement, but the right to carry a gun is a right given to us by the constitution. It's an important one, because it allows us to protect our and other people's rights.

ixtow · Jun 11, 2009

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"I'm not going to discuss this until you want to actually discuss it, instead of preach your agenda without listening."

People like that need time to stew. Eventually, they stop promoting their own agenda, and start seeing perspectives other than their own. It works because they get obsessed. They can't stop thinking about it. They get tired of repeating the same old internal speeches and eventually, out of sheer boredom and curiosity, they start thinking about other ideas.

IMO, simply decline to discuss it further. When such a person lobs the sarcastic questions at you, simply say "Think about it and you can find your own answers." No point in walking into the same wet paper bags he thinks you can't fight your way out of... It's silly and unproductive.

Especially family. You have to give them time to decide if they love their own blood more than a political agenda. Sometimes, that doesn't go your way... Big Brother is strong.

calmp9 · Jun 11, 2009

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saulsj wrote:

So, I was accompanying my Dad yesterday to take his computer in for repair at the local Best Buy. Once I entered his vehicle, I was promtply lectured about open carrying.

The conversation was sparked, because as I said in the Nevada OC thread, I tend to unholster/unload my gun whenever I get into a vehicle.

About five minutes into our drive, he began on about carrying open. He lectured how I was "asking for trouble" but carrying a gun in the open, especially unloading it as I'm getting into the car. His reasons were pretty cut and dry, "You wouldn't want an over-zealous pedestrian or driver to see your gun and call the police.

Well, he does have a valid point, but IMO, a 15 minute visit from an LEO would be worth it to exercise my ability to open carry. I also would welcome the opportunity to provide education, if needed, to anyone who needed it.

My father is a former LEO for the state of California, and is active duty in the military - unfortunately, while he is a CCW holder, he seems to prefer his guns locked away and hidden. He rarely ever carried, concealed or otherwise. Which, is his deal - he also dislikes the number of guns I have purchased in the short time I've been 21.

He firmly believes that if you are open-carrying, you will be harassed and bothered by every passing LEO you may encounter, and bothered and harassed by every anti-gun looney that you meet.

Clearly, I feel differently on the subject, and it doesn't matter what degree of legal citation or logic I can give him, he constantly harrangs me about open-carrying.

I'm a firm believer in statement, "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost."

So far, I've yet to be bothered by anyone while open carrying, although I'm still very new to it, short of an employee at Wal-Mart. It is very rare in my experience to see many open-carrying in Carson City, but I'll be damned if I let the ignorant prevent me from exercising my right.

I am a law abiding, 21 year old male, with no criminal record, not so much as a speeding ticket. Just because I've got tattoos, a shaved head, and a gun, doesn't give anybody the right to assume I'm up to no good.

Anyone else run into this hard-nosed mindset? It's extremely frustrating...

Sorry if this seems silly, but I've been so impressed by the collective knowledge of the members of this site, I was hoping that perhaps someone may provide another perspective.

Your dad is not totally wrong. He's right when he told you that you're asking for trouble when you unload your handgun when you get to the car. Why do you do that? You more you handle the handgun like that, the greater the chance of an accidental discharge. I keep mine in it's holster all the time.

Also, he's not wrong when he says that you will be stopped by law enforcement officers if they see you open carrying. The Nevada Attorney General and the Reno Deputy City Attorney have confirmed that. I don't like that, but that's what it is. You may be in the right legally, but there may be one time when it's your word against the one who called the police or sherriff in the first place. Then, it will be a matter of who the officer or deputy believes. It's possible that the caller might insist that you were threatening and brandishing your handgun even though you didn't do anything like that. There's always the possibility that you could be taken away, especially if you lose your temper trying to explain the the law enforcement officer that you were legally carrying and did nothing wrong.

More than likely, nothing will happen, but you never know. All it takes is a person who seems to be credible and a gung ho law enforcement officer.

Good luck!

calmp9 · Jun 11, 2009

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Pace wrote:

I never understood the phrase "asking for trouble."

Yes, by open carry, you are asking for trouble, you asking to be noticed, you do run more risk of being shot by the police, being arrested... and so on.

That being said, part of any civil rights movement, seem to be all that and more. People don't think of it as a civil rights movement, but the right to carry a gun is a right given to us by the constitution. It's an important one, because it allows us to protect our and other people's rights.

You have to consider where that came from. His father was a former law enforcement officer.

timf343 · Jun 11, 2009

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My father, also a former law enforcement officer, has that same mentality. He lives on the east coast so I don't have to listen to him lecture me on carrying, but when he visits me in August, I'll be OCing the whole time and am prepared for similar harassment.

I like ixtow's "I'm not going to discuss this until you want to actually discuss it, instead of preach your agenda without listening." and will probably wind up saying that or something very similar.

wrightme · Jun 12, 2009

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calmp9 wrote:

Your dad is not totally wrong. He's right when he told you that you're asking for trouble when you unload your handgun when you get to the car. Why do you do that? You more you handle the handgun like that, the greater the chance of an accidental discharge. I keep mine in it's holster all the time.

Also, he's not wrong when he says that you will be stopped by law enforcement officers if they see you open carrying. The Nevada Attorney General and the Reno Deputy City Attorney have confirmed that. I don't like that, but that's what it is. You may be in the right legally, but there may be one time when it's your word against the one who called the police or sherriff in the first place. Then, it will be a matter of who the officer or deputy believes. It's possible that the caller might insist that you were threatening and brandishing your handgun even though you didn't do anything like that. There's always the possibility that you could be taken away, especially if you lose your temper trying to explain the the law enforcement officer that you were legally carrying and did nothing wrong.

More than likely, nothing will happen, but you never know. All it takes is a person who seems to be credible and a gung ho law enforcement officer.

Good luck!

Yes, his dad is totally wrong. I do not agree with disarming and unloading when entering a vehicle, but that does not make his dad correct.

Cite please for the NVAG and RDCA on that?

LE will not stop you simply for OC. They might do so, but it is not a given.

DESERT ATILLA · Jun 12, 2009

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I'm going to have to agree with the others. Unloading your gun each time you enter a vehicle is inherently risky. Not only do you increase the chances of an accidental discharge, but you open the possibility up of a casual observer thinking you are brandishing your gun. Or worse yet, that casual observer might not know the difference between loading and unloading and think you may be getting ready to commit a crime. Thatcouldenvolve you in amoreserious LE encounter.

timf343 · Jun 12, 2009

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DESERT ATILLA wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with the others. Unloading your gun each time you enter a vehicle is inherently risky. Not only do you increase the chances of an accidental discharge, but you open the possibility up of a casual observer thinking you are brandishing your gun. Or worse yet, that casual observer might not know the difference between loading and unloading and think you may be getting ready to commit a crime. Thatcouldenvolve you in amoreserious LE encounter.

The only state law against brandishing is part of NRS 202.257(4) which states that if a person is intoxicated with a firearm, their weapon is only "forfeited" if it was brandished:

4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119 , inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.

There is no other law regarding brandishing I can find.

DESERT ATILLA · Jun 12, 2009

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Tim, you missed my point.

Caller: Hello, 911,

I just spotted a guy in a car. It looks like he's got a gun in his hand. I can't be sure, but it looks like he's loading it. No-I've never seen him before. I'm worried he might be up to something. Could you have somebody check it out? Now, we know the OP is merely unloading his gun because he told us. The caller doesn't.

We get funny looks from sheeple just for wearing a gun. What kind of reaction might occur if the gun is actually out of its holster? To one of our more reactive and ignorant citizens it could besomething as dramatic as "brandishing". Previously, I used the word, brandishing,more as a description of what a casual observer might perceive, not in the legal sense. And it seems to me we deal with perceptionsevery time we OC. Even though I didn't actually use the word in my example, above, it could have easily been included by somebody who might not even know the definition of brandishing.

Caller: Hello, 911, I just saw a guy with a gun.

911: What's he doing?

Caller: Well, he's getting into a car.

I don't know if the conversation would go any further. We knowthat chances are good that aresponse and contact will happen in either case. But which example would probably elicit a more serious response?There are plenty of threads in this site describing LE encounters and what might have prompted them.

I'm only suggesting, IMO, that it might be better to keep the gun hostered and thereby minimizing the odds of an uncomfortable encounter due to a call from an emotional casual observer.

calmp9 · Jun 12, 2009

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wrightme wrote:

calmp9 wrote:

Your dad is not totally wrong. He's right when he told you that you're asking for trouble when you unload your handgun when you get to the car. Why do you do that? You more you handle the handgun like that, the greater the chance of an accidental discharge. I keep mine in it's holster all the time.

Also, he's not wrong when he says that you will be stopped by law enforcement officers if they see you open carrying. The Nevada Attorney General and the Reno Deputy City Attorney have confirmed that. I don't like that, but that's what it is. You may be in the right legally, but there may be one time when it's your word against the one who called the police or sherriff in the first place. Then, it will be a matter of who the officer or deputy believes. It's possible that the caller might insist that you were threatening and brandishing your handgun even though you didn't do anything like that. There's always the possibility that you could be taken away, especially if you lose your temper trying to explain the the law enforcement officer that you were legally carrying and did nothing wrong.

More than likely, nothing will happen, but you never know. All it takes is a person who seems to be credible and a gung ho law enforcement officer.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Yes, his dad is totally wrong. I do not agree with disarming and unloading when entering a vehicle, but that does not make his dad correct.

Cite please for the NVAG and RDCA on that?

LE will not stop you simply for OC. They might do so, but it is not a given.

You want me to cite these people? Okay!

This from the Attorney General's site:

[align=center]Can I carry a firearm on my person in Nevada?
[/align] Currently, there are no State of Nevada statutes prohibiting the open carrying of firearms. However, in Nevada there are some local statutes prohibiting the carrying of loaded firearms within their jurisdictions.

Any person wishing to carry a firearm in open view – before doing so – is strongly encouraged to contact that jurisdictions’ law enforcement agency to determine if a statute against the open carrying of firearms does exist and that agency’s enforcement policy concerning the open carrying of firearms.

Caution! The open carrying of firearms – especially in congested urban areas – may be the cause of you being confronted by law enforcement!

I contacted Karen Fraley, Reno's Deputy City Attorney:

Question:

Can you please tell me the law regarding open carry in the city limits of Reno and Sparks? I keep hearing different things about this. Is open carry legal? If so, what are the restrictions as to where I can and cannot go? Will I be bothered by law enforcement?

Response:

Firearms are regulated by the State of Nevada and local jurisdictions
may only regulate the unlawful discharge of a firearm within the City
limits. I am unaware of any state statute that would prohibit an
individual carrying a firearm in a holster openly displayed. There are,
however, state statutes prohibiting firearms in certain locations. You
may wish to refer to NRS for further.

Businesses can, of course, regulate whether firearms are permitted
within their businesses.

I think you can expect an officer to talk to you should one see you
walking down the street with a firearm in a holster. It is also highly
likely that citizens would call in to report an individual with a
firearm, causing a police response. Normally, those who wish to be
armed obtain a CCW permit and simply carry it concealed, which causes
much less concern on the part of citizens and officers.

Karen S. Fraley
Deputy City Attorney
Legal Advisor - Reno Police Department

Happy now? Like I mentioned, I don't like but that's the way it is.

DESERT ATILLA · Jun 12, 2009

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calmp9 wrote:

wrightme wrote:

calmp9 wrote:

Your dad is not totally wrong. He's right when he told you that you're asking for trouble when you unload your handgun when you get to the car. Why do you do that? You more you handle the handgun like that, the greater the chance of an accidental discharge. I keep mine in it's holster all the time.

Also, he's not wrong when he says that you will be stopped by law enforcement officers if they see you open carrying. The Nevada Attorney General and the Reno Deputy City Attorney have confirmed that. I don't like that, but that's what it is. You may be in the right legally, but there may be one time when it's your word against the one who called the police or sherriff in the first place. Then, it will be a matter of who the officer or deputy believes. It's possible that the caller might insist that you were threatening and brandishing your handgun even though you didn't do anything like that. There's always the possibility that you could be taken away, especially if you lose your temper trying to explain the the law enforcement officer that you were legally carrying and did nothing wrong.

More than likely, nothing will happen, but you never know. All it takes is a person who seems to be credible and a gung ho law enforcement officer.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Yes, his dad is totally wrong. I do not agree with disarming and unloading when entering a vehicle, but that does not make his dad correct.

Cite please for the NVAG and RDCA on that?

LE will not stop you simply for OC. They might do so, but it is not a given.

Click to expand...

You want me to cite these people? Okay!

This from the Attorney General's site:

[align=center]Can I carry a firearm on my person in Nevada?
[/align]Currently, there are no State of Nevada statutes prohibiting the open carrying of firearms. However, in Nevada there are some local statutes prohibiting the carrying of loaded firearms within their jurisdictions.

Any person wishing to carry a firearm in open view – before doing so – is strongly encouraged to contact that jurisdictions’ law enforcement agency to determine if a statute against the open carrying of firearms does exist and that agency’s enforcement policy concerning the open carrying of firearms.

Caution! The open carrying of firearms – especially in congested urban areas – may be the cause of you being confronted by law enforcement!

I contacted Karen Fraley, Reno's Deputy City Attorney:

Question:

Can you please tell me the law regarding open carry in the city limits of Reno and Sparks? I keep hearing different things about this. Is open carry legal? If so, what are the restrictions as to where I can and cannot go? Will I be bothered by law enforcement?

Response:

Firearms are regulated by the State of Nevada and local jurisdictions
may only regulate the unlawful discharge of a firearm within the City
limits. I am unaware of any state statute that would prohibit an
individual carrying a firearm in a holster openly displayed. There are,
however, state statutes prohibiting firearms in certain locations. You
may wish to refer to NRS for further.

Businesses can, of course, regulate whether firearms are permitted
within their businesses.

I think you can expect an officer to talk to you should one see you
walking down the street with a firearm in a holster. It is also highly
likely that citizens would call in to report an individual with a
firearm, causing a police response. Normally, those who wish to be
armed obtain a CCW permit and simply carry it concealed, which causes
much less concern on the part of citizens and officers.

Karen S. Fraley
Deputy City Attorney
Legal Advisor - Reno Police Department

Happy now? Like I mentioned, I don't like but that's the way it is.

When was this written? We have an attorney admitting that local ordinances are not enforcable.

timf343 · Jun 12, 2009

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Are there any Reno ordinances "on the books" whether enforceable or not?

Boulder City has a law on the books (Municipal Code Chapter 7.1.3) that prohibits possession of weapons anywhere in city limits that is within 1000 yds of a structure. That's pretty much EVERYWHERE.

However, Dave Olsen, City Attorney for Boulder City, has already stated this code is not enforceable per SB92, but remains on the books because the City Council has "higher priorities".

Tim

timf343 · Jun 12, 2009

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DESERT ATILLA wrote:

Tim, you missed my point.

<snip>

Sorry, I understand now. Taking this a step further, it's also very possible the 911 operator doesn't understand the law either.

Even an "innocent" MWAG call by a citizen may be translated slightly be the 911 operator from "getting into his car with what looks like a gun in his hand" to "caller reports man with gun in hand is attempting to get into a vehicle" which could easily be misinterpreted by responding officers as a carjacking.

Pace · Jun 12, 2009

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Remember this: Most police officers when they respond to a 911 call

1) The person calling in their mind is a VICTIM
2) THe person who they are calling about is a SUSPECT.

One expert calls it a "false positive" for 911 calls, which means when someone calls that there is a MWOG, you are a SUSPECT immediately.

Felid`Maximus · Jun 13, 2009

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timf343 wrote:

Are there any Reno ordinances "on the books" whether enforceable or not?

There are no Reno ordinances concerning firearms except that one cannot discharge firearms in Reno and hospitals must report gun wounds.

The city of Sparks however does have laws on the books, for example the City of Sparks thinks they are entitled to ban guns in parks except for people with concealed carry permits.

timf343 · Jun 13, 2009

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Clark County DA is requesting an AG opinion on the topic of guns in parks. If favorable, the opinion will be strong precedent to get Sparks to go pound sand. If unfavorable, unfortuantely, the opposite will be true, only reinforcing these types of bans statewide.

Tim

gunrunner1911 · Jun 16, 2009

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NRS 202.320 covers brandishing. It's pretty clear on the matter.

FMCDH · Jun 16, 2009

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timf343 wrote:

Clark County DA is requesting an AG opinion on the topic of guns in parks. If favorable, the opinion will be strong precedent to get Sparks to go pound sand. If unfavorable, unfortuantely, the opposite will be true, only reinforcing these types of bans statewide.

Tim

That's not good.

Masto is no friend of the Second Amendment from the opinions I have read from her. I don't see her as a direct opponent, but I don't think she is going to go out of her way to support gun owners on this matter. Shes more likely to "opinion" on the side of the individual cities "rights" based upon her history.

Anyone have any opinion history for her on the positive side? I cant find anything about her at all on GOA.

Apparently, I'm "asking for trouble,"

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