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Thread: NPS Market Square

  1. #1
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Went shopping at NPS on Empire road when the security officer asked me if I was Law Enforcement I said no. The Security officer said I had to conceal the firearm. So I concealed it since I was with friends. After leaving the Wherehouse I went over to Market Square with my friends. Tucked my shirt in after I left the wherehouse.

    As I was shopping at market square NPS I was approched by4 SLCPD Officers two of the female officerswith shotguns and the two males officers approched me by the electronics counter. asked to speak with me One of the male officers detained me while the other took my firearm and unloaded it.

    I told them where my CCW Permit was and my ID. They checked my Permit and CCW and walked me out of NPS Market in Handcuffs.

    After everything verified I was released the Officer walked my firearm back to my friends Car and put it in the trunk and walked away

    No Charges were filed officers were very cordial. Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed


    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    if they knew the law very well, why the **** would they detain you???

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    if they knew the law very well, why the **** would they detain you???

    +1

    What was their reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) for a full-blown Terry Stop with shotguns?

    Unless there is something you are not telling us, your 4A rights wereinfringed.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    The security officer told police I would not Identify myself and walked away. Never did he ask me for my ID or to leave
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    The security officer told police I would not Identify myself and walked away. Never did he ask me for my ID or to leave
    What was their reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) for a full-blown Terry Stop with shotguns?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    officers were very cordial. Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed

    They detain you with shotguns, lead you out like a felon in handcuffs, put your gun in someone elses car,and you call them cordial and knowledgable?

    You were impressed? :shock:

    Something sounds fishy here... :?

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Did you ask them to wear a condom before they screwed with your right? I hate reading how everyone thanks the cop for detaining them. We have to start standing up to this misuse and abuse of power.

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    No I was not impressed with what happened. I am looking at ways to pursue this and most likely obtain legal advice. On monday I will stop by SLCPDand speak with the captain about the Incident. Any Advice would be nice
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    ...Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed
    Sucks that you were still detained and handcuffed even though they claim they just finished a class on "this" (OC ?) i dunno.

    it doesn't sound like they billy-clubbed you in the parking lot or anything, but i wish they wouldn't have escorted you out, handcuffed you, and put your firearm in the trunk. You have a CFP, if they know the laws from the class they just took (assuming it was on OC) they should have known that you weren't breaking any laws and what they did was a bit excessive.

    I'm not sure what worse, the fact that they took a class on OC and still treated you like this, or that the class they took taught them this protocol. Scary..

    i appriciate that you said they were a bit cordial with you, but that is practically all but voided by their actions. Too bad.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Hmm, seems like the best thing to do would be to call Mitch Vilos.

    http://www.firearmslaw.com/index-attorney.html

    Probably need the police report, 911 call tape, radio traffic tape, etc.

    IANAL, but Mitch is. Give him a call.

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    SNIP if they know the laws from the class they just took (assuming it was on OC) they should have known that you weren't breaking any laws...
    Which is another way of saying they confessed to knowingly violating his rights.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    No I was not impressed with what happened. I am looking at ways to pursue this and most likely obtain legal advice. On monday I will stop by SLCPDand speak with the captain about the Incident. Any Advice would be nice
    My advice would be to not talk to the captain or the police. We have several experiences here where police were happy to talk with someone. No record. No formal complaint. No paper trail. Just sweep it under the rug after the complaintant is mollified by being "listened to."

    Talk to the attorney if you can afford it.

    At a minimum file a formal complaint.

    But, first, obtain the records THX mentions in his post just above. You want to find out whether the police really had RAS or not. What was 911 told by the caller? What was radioed to the officers? What did the officers report back?

    To THX's list I might add dashcam videos andtext messages fromthe computer terminals in the police cars.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    thx997303 wrote:
    Hmm, seems like the best thing to do would be to call Mitch Vilos.

    http://www.firearmslaw.com/index-attorney.html

    Probably need the police report, 911 call tape, radio traffic tape, etc.

    IANAL, but Mitch is. Give him a call.
    +1 & here is his number 801-560-7117.

    I would have torn a hole in those cops so big, you could see their peon brains through their anal sphincter. There must be something that the security guy said to the police that is not revealed here in order for them to have enough concern to detain you and confiscate your weapon and haul you off of the property in handcuffs. Depending on the situation, you may have a good case against the city. Make those bastads pay! I would! You might want to edit your post on here though, or else it could be used to show that you thought the cops were very professional. Doh! lol

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Was one of the officers named Curdie by chance?

    See Lund v Salt Lake City (2008) US District Court Civil No. 2:07-CV-0226BSJ
    MEMORANDUM OPINION & ORDER (Fed. R. Civ. P. 56)

    Pay particular attention to Footnote 9.

    By itself, mere possession of a firearm in public is not unlawful and may well represent the exercise of a fundamental constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 6 of the Utah Constitution (recognizing the “individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes,” subject to the power of the Legislature to define the “lawful use of arms.”). See District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 2799 (2008) (“There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms.”); see also Utah Code Ann. §§ 76-10-500 to 530 (2003 & Supp. 2008) (Utah Firearms Act). In Utah, the carrying of a concealed weapon on one’s person in public is a matter of State licensing and regulation, and is routinely permitted pursuant to the applicable State statute. See Utah Code Ann. §§ 53-5-701 to 711 (Supp. 2008). The legislature has explicitly denied local governmental entities such as Salt Lake City the power to limit or restrict possession of a firearm on public property: “Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.” Utah Code Ann. § 53-5a-102 (Supp. 2008); see University of Utah v. Shurtleff, 2006 UT 51, ¶ 11, 144 P.3d 1109, 1113 (observing that the enactment of § 53-5a-102 in 2004 “dramatically altered the legal landscape, rendering it clear that Utah’s firearms statutes are universally applicable”). The legislature has authorized municipalities only to “regulate and prevent the discharge of firearms, rockets, powder, fireworks or any other dangerous or combustible material.” Utah Code Ann. § 10-8-47 (2007).

    As articulated by the Utah Legislature, public policy in this State may fairly be read to condone and even encourage gun ownership and the lawful possession and carrying of firearms in public places. Salt Lake City’s asserted governmental interest in its police officers’ response to a report of a “man with a gun” in a public park cannot be weighed in isolation from this oft-emphasized public policy. In that context, there may well be more individual constitutional rights at stake than the Fourth Amendment freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
    This case reiterates that detaining or arresting someone for simply possessing a firearm is a violation of their 4th Amendment rights.

    Definitely talk to Mitch or another well versed attorney.


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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:..
    I would have torn a hole in those cops so big, you could see their peon brains through their anal sphincter....
    Daaaaaaaaaaaaang!!! Don't piss LovesHisXD45 off!
    You tell 'em!

    Ultimately, you'll have to decide your course of action. Just be sure to DO something about it, don't just sit on it. I know a certain attorney that would write you letter to any department you want for $400, most would. Just don't sit on it.

  16. #16
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.

    I cant believe this happenes in SLC though, after all of TJ's hard work.

  17. #17
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    thx997303 wrote:
    since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.

    I cant believe this happenes in SLC though, after all of TJ's hard work.
    Those nifty little computer screens and keyboards in the patrol cars are used to send messages. I'm talking police communications, not personal e-mails.

    The Manassas, VA PDpolice carmessages were a part of the information obtained by the OCers harassed at Tony's Restaurant in early 2007. The text messages start at about page 14 of the pdf:

    http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/MCPD_FOIA_Response.pdf
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    thx997303 wrote:
    since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.
    Utah County Sheriffs Office uses instant messaging on a regular basis.

  19. #19
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    rpyne wrote:
    Utah County Sheriffs Office uses instant messaging on a regular basis.
    Thanks to this and trunked radio systems, my scanner now collects dust.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  20. #20
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Sad isnt it? My Grandpa always had a scanner going at his house. It was fun to listen to, and you knew what was going on around you.

    Now it just picks up ambulance calls.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    This is all very good and I will take into consideration all of this. In the past the attorney Mitch Vilios charges a decent amount to bring forth legal action. I will probaly go the route of a formal complaint.

    This brings up a good point for future problems. If we could start a non profit group where we can contribute into a general fund for legal issues and other problems thatarise. It would give us a larger say on what goes on with gun laws in Utah. Also put out a message to all police departments they need to think before they act.

    If it can be arranged I would love to contribute to this cause. It would allow us to holdfundraisers to further our cause. Imagine each time our civil rights are violated being able to settle with the agenciesand show them we willnot stand down on our gun rights.

    Just a Idea
    Zach
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  22. #22
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    I believe we were talking about something like that before, way back when I had my issue with AFPD. Don't know what happeneds with it though.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    I would be happy to donate the first amount towards starting a non-profit or legal fund for future Incidents. It might be possiable to work with Mitch Vilos on seeing what his terms would be.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    SLCPD never were impressed with their police force, for the last 19 years that I have been living in Utah!

  25. #25
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    They should have paid and thank you for the "training drill" you provided for them!

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